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[camera shutter clicking]

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[cat meowing]

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[soft whirring]

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Good morning, guys.

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[kids] Good morning.

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Have you heard of Batman?

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Yes.

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Just checking and just kidding.

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Of course you've
heard of Batman.

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So I have had the honor

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of getting invited to
speak all over the world

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to tell the story that
you're about to hear.

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And everywhere I go,
whether it's Tanzania in Africa

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or Chile in South America

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or Hong Kong or Thailand

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or the United Arab Emirates,

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everywhere I go,
I show that symbol,

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and I have not been to a school

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anywhere in the world where
someone doesn't know it.

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Now don't worry if you're
not interested in superheroes

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because I've done this many times,

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and I can guarantee everyone
here, including staff,

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that you will walk out
of this room in an hour

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with a different perspective

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than you have right now,
I guarantee it.

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On every Batman story
since the first in 1939,

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there was only one name
in the credit line.

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"Batman created by Bob Kane."

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Here he is.

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And here's the thing
about that credit line:

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It is not true.

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[music]

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The reason I do explain why

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that I like superheroes
is a little bit pat,

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and it maybe is a
little bit disingenuous

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because I wasn't thinking
like this as a kid.

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[music continues]

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But I do like stories of selflessness

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and I like stories of sacrifice,

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and superheroes sacrifice
something on a daily basis.

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[music]

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Superheroes are not doing this
to get paid or praised,

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and it is not about them.

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They are doing something
for the greater good,

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then they disappear into the night.

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[music]

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The notion of that is so rare
in real life.

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I mean, we know so few people

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that can afford to be selfless.

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[music]

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As a six-year-old,
I wasn't thinking like that,

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even as a 12- or 15-year-old.

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I just liked a good story,
a good adventure, and I still do,

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so it was a combination
of those things,

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this purity of purpose

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and then just a great cliff-hanging,
rollicking adventure.

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_

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[music]

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Here is the Batman section.

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One, two, three, four
full... almost full shelves.

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And compare that to... Superman.

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Not knocking Superman,
but just looking at the reality.

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Here's Superman
up to about there.

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Batman is not only
the most identifiable

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and recognizable and famous
and beloved superhero,

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but he is one of
the most recognizable

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fictional characters of all time.

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Can take almost any
Batman book off the shelf

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and open to the title page.

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"Batman created by Bob Kane."

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Bob, for the few people who
come from another planet,

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who may not know what you do,

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what is it that you're known for?

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- You've got to be kidding.
- I am, of course.

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Bob Kane is the original
cartoonist of Batman

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and the man who has
been credited on Batman

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for most of Batman's history.

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When I was 18, I tripped across
a character called Batman.

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Bat... how do you pronounce that?

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- Batman?
- B-A-T-man.

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It was called
"Batman by Robert Kane."

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In 1938, two gangly kids
from Cleveland, Ohio

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sold an idea for a
character named Superman.

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Superman was a huge
influence on Bob Kane,

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not the creative side,
the financial side.

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So I thought of, yeah,

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"How much money is
Siegel and Shuster making?"

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They were the creators of Superman.

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And in those days, in '39,

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they were making
$800 apiece a week.

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When Bob Kane found
out how much money

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the Superman creators were
making on a weekly basis

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which was $800 at the time,

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he went to an editor at National.

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He said, "Listen, Bob, can
you do another superhero?"

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I said, "For that kind of money,
you'll have it on Monday."

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For that kind of money,
you'd be the superhero.

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Boy, you better believe it.
I'll steal it somewhere.

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And I went home,
and lo and behold

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I thought about all
my childhood heroes

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when I was a kid and
my world of fantasy.

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And on Monday, I came up with

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a very crude drawing of Batman.

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And the rest is
history that Batman...

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Batman is my claim to infamy.

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[music]

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Well, like most adults
that like superheroes,

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my interest started
when I was a kid.

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I just never outgrew it.

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And that began a passion
that I had most of my life.

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I had a little gap in adolescence

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when I had to distance
myself from things

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that could get in the
way of girls and life,

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but for the most part, I've stuck

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with superheroes my whole life.

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I am an author of
books for young people,

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and some of them are
books for all ages.

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And I've written about 75 books.

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This is my first-ever book.

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The Felix Activity Book.

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Tour de force, I'm sure you
remember it well from 1996.

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And then here's the epic sequel,

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Felix Explores our World.

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I think the recurring theme of
my nonfiction is untold stories.

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Boys of Steel.

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Biography of
Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster,

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creators of Superman.

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There are sometimes tragic stories

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behind these iconic characters.

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Marc loves to bring out
the story behind a story,

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so he goes deep, and he's
also very persistent also

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as a human being.

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You got two toothpastes
because you didn't know

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if I wanted fluoride or not?

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- Yeah.
- Because they just announced

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that fluoride is a toxin now.

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I know that.

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I told you all along.

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It's in the water,
it's in the toothpaste.

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No, I know it's there,
but that doesn't mean

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- it's a toxin.
- Oh, you're filming us?

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I definitely feel sometimes

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that I'm not only
married to a writer,

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but also even more so a detective.

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When I decided to write a book

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on the story behind Batman,
it hadn't been done yet.

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Whenever you start
a research project,

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you can't possibly know how much

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or how little you're going to find.

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In this case, I was going
into the Batman book

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knowing that there were secrets

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that hadn't been
widely discussed,

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but I had no way to know
it was a lot more than that.

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So this story, for me,

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was uncovering
a big superhero secret

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that should have been
blown wide decades ago.

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[music]
[car horn honks]

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In New York in 1965,
was the first official Comic Con,

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and the reason that this is
considered the first official Comic Con

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is because it was the first time
that professionals showed up,

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not just fans in a hotel
basement with some back issues.

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This was historic,
this was a big deal.

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They didn't know it at the time,
but it was a big deal.

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There were 200 of us
at that Comic Con.

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[music]

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And this place was so sketchy.

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And we got there,
and my mother freaked

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when she saw where we were.

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There was literally
a guy drunk, unconscious

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on the floor in the lobby,

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and roaches on the walls,
and she just said,

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"We're out of here, we're leaving."

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The hotel itself, a few months later,
actually, much of it collapsed.

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Luckily, it didn't do so
while we were in there,

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but none of us was
particularly surprised

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to hear that the Broadway
Central had collapsed.

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My mom finally said,
"Okay, we'll stay,

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and you can go up to this
comic book convention,

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but don't touch anything."

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And as we went through the bar,

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we saw Otto Binder
sitting there at the bar

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with another guy drinking.

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And we go in and we sit
down on the stools.

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And he goes, "What are
you boys drinking?"

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We ordered our Cokes.

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And Otto turns to me and Bob,

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he said, "Boys, how
would you like to meet

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the creator of Batman?"

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And, like, our jaws dropped,
our eyes had to be wide open,

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and we figured we were
going to meet Bob Kane,

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which was the only
name we ever saw

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on a comic book, it was always
in a box with a big "O" for Bob.

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And Otto said, "Fellas,
meet Bill Finger."

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[music]

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So in 1965 at this Comic Con,
in this dingy hotel in New York,

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Bill Finger made what
is probably his first

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and maybe his only
public appearance,

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and he appeared on a panel with
three other comics' creators.

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At this panel,
Bill was introduced

201
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by the moderator whose
name was Jerry Bails.

202
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And perhaps we'll hear some...

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Jerry was the fan,
who in 1964 or so,

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figured out that it could not be

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just this one guy, Bob Kane,
writing and drawing

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every Batman story every month.

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So Jerry did some
detective work of his own.

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00:09:47,851 --> 00:09:51,114
He wrote letters to DC Comics saying,
"Who's really doing all this?"

209
00:09:51,149 --> 00:09:52,900
And in those days, companies
would write you back

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with a personal letter.

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And the name that he saw
more than any other

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was Bill Finger.

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00:10:19,265 --> 00:10:23,251
So in 1965, Jerry wrote a
two-page article which was called

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00:10:23,252 --> 00:10:25,571
"If the Truth Be Known, or
A Finger in Every Plot!"

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00:10:25,606 --> 00:10:27,476
And this was obviously
way before the internet,

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so his way of spreading the word

217
00:10:29,486 --> 00:10:31,106
was he made copies of
this and sent it out

218
00:10:31,112 --> 00:10:33,242
to Batman fans all
over the country.

219
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And that's when...
the controversy erupted.

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Bill was given a forum
to tell his story

221
00:10:41,874 --> 00:10:44,521
where we could finally
become familiar with all these

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00:10:44,522 --> 00:10:47,168
characters and books that
he wrote over the decades.

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00:10:47,172 --> 00:10:50,714
It was the first thing that, in writing,
really gave Bill Finger credit

224
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for the co-creation of Batman,
and it was about time.

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00:10:55,468 --> 00:11:00,312
[music]

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00:11:00,347 --> 00:11:04,562
That fateful Friday in 1939
when Bob told his editor

227
00:11:04,567 --> 00:11:06,657
that he would be able to
come up with a superhero

228
00:11:06,692 --> 00:11:09,038
over the weekend,
he apparently did go home that day

229
00:11:09,073 --> 00:11:11,953
and work on a character
which he called "Batman."

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00:11:11,988 --> 00:11:14,242
Bob's idea for Batman
was a character

231
00:11:14,246 --> 00:11:17,336
in a red union suit,
basically red tights,

232
00:11:17,371 --> 00:11:21,719
a domino mask which is a little mask
like what Robin wears now,

233
00:11:21,754 --> 00:11:24,548
stiff wings attached to the arms,

234
00:11:24,583 --> 00:11:27,344
and, as far as we know,
nothing more,

235
00:11:27,379 --> 00:11:29,964
no other distinguishing elements.

236
00:11:29,972 --> 00:11:31,932
And he had enough sense to know

237
00:11:31,967 --> 00:11:33,893
that this was not good enough,

238
00:11:33,928 --> 00:11:37,260
and he knew who to call.
Bill Finger.

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00:11:38,607 --> 00:11:40,857
They get together.

240
00:11:40,860 --> 00:11:43,911
They're huddling over this drawing,

241
00:11:43,946 --> 00:11:46,277
and Bill looked at
the red suit and said,

242
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"This is not suitable for
a creature of the night.

243
00:11:49,658 --> 00:11:51,240
He's got to be
darker," so he said,

244
00:11:51,247 --> 00:11:53,207
"Let's darken the whole costume."

245
00:11:53,242 --> 00:11:54,678
He looked at the
little mask and said,

246
00:11:54,702 --> 00:11:56,627
"This is not going to
intimidate criminals.

247
00:11:56,662 --> 00:11:58,638
Let's cover most of
his face with a cowl

248
00:11:58,673 --> 00:11:59,790
and put pointed ears on it,

249
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so that he actually
looks like his namesake.

250
00:12:02,553 --> 00:12:05,991
The stiff wings are not practical
for obvious reasons,

251
00:12:05,992 --> 00:12:07,221
so let's ditch the wings

252
00:12:07,256 --> 00:12:09,680
and give him a cape
with a scalloped edge

253
00:12:09,684 --> 00:12:14,029
which will fly out behind him
and look like wings."

254
00:12:14,064 --> 00:12:16,605
You set the tone of
this character's essence

255
00:12:16,610 --> 00:12:18,527
from his visuals
before you know a thing

256
00:12:18,562 --> 00:12:20,445
about his personality
and his mission.

257
00:12:20,447 --> 00:12:22,424
So that was all Bill.

258
00:12:22,460 --> 00:12:24,403
Bill reconstructed Batman

259
00:12:24,410 --> 00:12:27,370
into the Batman that
we all know today.

260
00:12:27,371 --> 00:12:28,955
Bob apparently went to the company

261
00:12:28,990 --> 00:12:30,539
on Monday morning with this sketch.

262
00:12:30,542 --> 00:12:32,922
Did not mention that there
was anyone else involved,

263
00:12:32,957 --> 00:12:36,631
and said, "This is my idea."

264
00:12:36,633 --> 00:12:38,933
I have been told, although
I've never been privy,

265
00:12:38,968 --> 00:12:40,507
of course, to the contract,

266
00:12:40,511 --> 00:12:46,942
that that contract included
specifically a stipulation

267
00:12:46,977 --> 00:12:51,558
that Batman would
hereafter be listed

268
00:12:51,566 --> 00:12:53,993
as the sole creation of Bob Kane.

269
00:12:54,028 --> 00:12:56,238
Bob went back to Bill
and presumably said,

270
00:12:56,239 --> 00:12:57,899
"Great news, they
want to buy Batman,

271
00:12:57,907 --> 00:13:00,208
so you'll write it
and I'll draw it,

272
00:13:00,243 --> 00:13:02,743
and my name will be on it
because I sold it, of course,

273
00:13:02,746 --> 00:13:04,916
and I'll give you a portion
of what I get paid."

274
00:13:04,951 --> 00:13:06,507
Nothing was signed,
as far as we know,

275
00:13:06,542 --> 00:13:09,752
but it was something that
they mutually agreed on.

276
00:13:09,754 --> 00:13:12,544
So Bill was not credited
at all from the beginning,

277
00:13:12,548 --> 00:13:14,678
and within a couple of months,

278
00:13:14,713 --> 00:13:16,808
Batman was on the newsstands.

279
00:13:16,843 --> 00:13:20,515
[music]

280
00:13:20,517 --> 00:13:23,307
Batman debuted in '39
and, essentially,

281
00:13:23,311 --> 00:13:27,822
it was from 1939 to 1965
where Bill was anonymous.

282
00:13:27,857 --> 00:13:30,697
It's one thing for Bob Kane in 1939

283
00:13:30,732 --> 00:13:33,066
to take full credit for Batman

284
00:13:33,073 --> 00:13:34,706
when Bill Finger agreed to it,

285
00:13:34,741 --> 00:13:36,491
but where the story
changes dramatically

286
00:13:36,493 --> 00:13:39,457
is in the '60s when
Bill is coaxed out.

287
00:13:39,492 --> 00:13:42,420
At that point, Bob had
a decision to make.

288
00:13:42,455 --> 00:13:43,800
"Am I going to own up to this

289
00:13:43,835 --> 00:13:46,586
or am I going to deny it
from my position of power?"

290
00:13:46,588 --> 00:13:47,673
He had a chance to take,

291
00:13:47,674 --> 00:13:49,757
obviously, the high road
or the low road,

292
00:13:49,758 --> 00:13:53,259
and he took the way low road.
[music]

293
00:13:53,263 --> 00:13:56,603
When Jerry's article about
what Bill Finger had done

294
00:13:56,638 --> 00:13:57,810
on Batman came out,

295
00:13:57,845 --> 00:14:00,270
of course it made
Bob Kane go ballistic

296
00:14:00,271 --> 00:14:01,851
the minute that he saw it,

297
00:14:01,856 --> 00:14:04,700
so he went to the editor of Batmania

298
00:14:04,735 --> 00:14:08,615
and he wrote half
a dozen pages of diatribe.

299
00:14:08,650 --> 00:14:12,125
Obviously, Bob Kane did not want
Bill Finger's story told

300
00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:15,450
and took tremendous offense at it.

301
00:14:15,455 --> 00:14:18,709
"Here, for the first time,
straight from the horse's mouth,

302
00:14:18,744 --> 00:14:21,839
is the real inside story
about myself and Batman.

303
00:14:21,874 --> 00:14:23,430
It seemed to me that Bill Finger

304
00:14:23,465 --> 00:14:26,175
has given out the impression
that he and not myself

305
00:14:26,176 --> 00:14:28,637
created the 'Batman'
as well as Robin

306
00:14:28,672 --> 00:14:31,738
and all the other leading
villains and characters.

307
00:14:31,773 --> 00:14:34,806
This statement is fraudulent
and entirely untrue!"

308
00:14:34,811 --> 00:14:36,811
There was one man's
word against the other.

309
00:14:36,813 --> 00:14:38,113
There was no reality show

310
00:14:38,148 --> 00:14:40,739
documenting the birth
of Batman, of course.

311
00:14:40,774 --> 00:14:42,986
It was two guys in an apartment
in the Bronx in 1939

312
00:14:42,987 --> 00:14:45,488
when most people had much
bigger things to worry about

313
00:14:45,490 --> 00:14:47,382
than who's coming up with
this guy dressed as a bat?

314
00:14:47,406 --> 00:14:49,787
"The truth is that Bill
Finger is taking credit

315
00:14:49,822 --> 00:14:51,617
for much more than he deserves,

316
00:14:51,622 --> 00:14:54,583
and I refute much of his
statements here in print.

317
00:14:54,584 --> 00:14:57,004
The fact is that I
conceived the 'Batman' figure

318
00:14:57,039 --> 00:14:59,065
and costume entirely by myself.

319
00:14:59,100 --> 00:15:02,475
I created the title, masthead,
the format and concept,

320
00:15:02,510 --> 00:15:05,130
as well as the Batman
figure and costume."

321
00:15:05,137 --> 00:15:07,478
I don't think that
Bob Kane ever wanted

322
00:15:07,513 --> 00:15:10,559
anything out in writing that
would admit that anybody else

323
00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:12,561
had a hand in creating
anything for Batman.

324
00:15:12,563 --> 00:15:15,273
His whole myth,
his contract with DC,

325
00:15:15,274 --> 00:15:17,864
his name on the stories
all owed to the fact

326
00:15:17,899 --> 00:15:20,691
that he was the creator of Batman.

327
00:15:20,697 --> 00:15:22,289
When Bob chose to respond

328
00:15:22,324 --> 00:15:24,865
to Bill's coming out by writing a letter

329
00:15:24,869 --> 00:15:27,853
denying Bill's
involvement to that degree,

330
00:15:27,888 --> 00:15:32,375
Bob was, in effect, changing the
course of his life with this letter.

331
00:15:32,378 --> 00:15:36,965
He was saying, "I'm going to have
to stick to this story forever."

332
00:15:36,966 --> 00:15:39,677
[music]

333
00:15:39,678 --> 00:15:42,888
We're all born with
a natural creative potential.

334
00:15:42,889 --> 00:15:44,930
Every man has it and every woman.

335
00:15:44,934 --> 00:15:47,498
The idea is to find out what that is.

336
00:15:47,533 --> 00:15:50,063
And it's like a little birdie tells you

337
00:15:50,065 --> 00:15:52,905
and whispers in your ear,
it's an intuitive thing.

338
00:15:52,940 --> 00:15:55,361
No one can tell you that but God.

339
00:15:55,362 --> 00:15:59,373
And I knew I had that
when I was eight or ten

340
00:15:59,408 --> 00:16:01,617
that I wanted to be
a famous cartoonist.

341
00:16:01,619 --> 00:16:04,540
Bob Kane was a kid
from the Bronx,

342
00:16:04,575 --> 00:16:08,290
and he was an artist
with big dreams.

343
00:16:08,294 --> 00:16:10,255
He was a go-getter
and he was working

344
00:16:10,290 --> 00:16:13,056
for the company that
would become DC Comics

345
00:16:13,091 --> 00:16:15,922
which at that point was called
National Periodical.

346
00:16:15,928 --> 00:16:18,438
Bob and Bill met at a party.

347
00:16:20,474 --> 00:16:22,768
They didn't know each
other previous to that

348
00:16:22,803 --> 00:16:25,061
even though they went
to the same high school.

349
00:16:25,063 --> 00:16:28,024
And Bill was a shoe salesman.

350
00:16:28,026 --> 00:16:30,276
He had aspirations to become a writer.

351
00:16:30,278 --> 00:16:31,778
I said, "Why don't you try writing

352
00:16:31,779 --> 00:16:33,279
for the new comic book?"

353
00:16:33,281 --> 00:16:35,541
Bob was already
working in comics,

354
00:16:35,576 --> 00:16:38,534
drawing stories, and Bob
could immediately sense

355
00:16:38,569 --> 00:16:41,494
that Bill was good with
narrative, had good ideas.

356
00:16:41,499 --> 00:16:43,710
It sounds like they were
very different types of people,

357
00:16:43,745 --> 00:16:45,260
but I think what
they had in common

358
00:16:45,295 --> 00:16:49,126
was their love of the
new medium of comics.

359
00:16:49,127 --> 00:16:51,051
[music]

360
00:16:51,052 --> 00:16:53,604
In the early days,
really, it was Superman

361
00:16:53,639 --> 00:16:56,639
that brought the comic
book publishing industry

362
00:16:56,642 --> 00:17:01,313
out of this mire of
reprints of comic strips.

363
00:17:01,314 --> 00:17:04,484
It was very much kind of
a fly-by-night industry.

364
00:17:04,519 --> 00:17:05,743
You had a comic publisher

365
00:17:05,778 --> 00:17:08,028
which is maybe a couple
guys at a couple desks

366
00:17:08,030 --> 00:17:10,320
in a couple of rooms
in Midtown somewhere,

367
00:17:10,324 --> 00:17:12,115
and what they largely
did is they farmed out

368
00:17:12,118 --> 00:17:13,828
the actual production
of comic book stories

369
00:17:13,863 --> 00:17:16,004
to what were known as "shops."

370
00:17:16,039 --> 00:17:18,250
You had guys just laying
down the pencil artwork,

371
00:17:18,251 --> 00:17:20,411
you had inkers and finishers
that were then putting

372
00:17:20,419 --> 00:17:22,044
permanent artwork on top of that.

373
00:17:22,079 --> 00:17:23,670
There were people doing paste up,

374
00:17:23,673 --> 00:17:25,174
there were people
adding word balloons.

375
00:17:25,175 --> 00:17:30,014
Bob Kane and Bill Finger
were, in effect, a sort of shop.

376
00:17:30,049 --> 00:17:32,847
Bob was the only one
dealing with the publisher directly.

377
00:17:32,850 --> 00:17:35,860
Kane had his name on
the Batman stories,

378
00:17:35,895 --> 00:17:38,026
but he didn't tell
anybody about Bill Finger,

379
00:17:38,061 --> 00:17:42,868
and, of course, you assumed
that he had done the whole thing,

380
00:17:42,903 --> 00:17:44,904
and I think that's just
the way Bob wanted it.

381
00:17:44,906 --> 00:17:48,699
From a corporation point of view,
they contract Bob Kane,

382
00:17:48,702 --> 00:17:51,003
Bob Kane is supposed to
deliver pages to them,

383
00:17:51,038 --> 00:17:52,117
and that's all they cared about.

384
00:17:52,123 --> 00:17:54,164
They're going, "I don't
care how you build it,"

385
00:17:54,199 --> 00:17:56,206
right, just, "I need it
built every 30 days

386
00:17:56,211 --> 00:17:58,881
because we've got a publishing
deadline coming here."

387
00:17:58,916 --> 00:18:02,262
So in order to meet the demands
of the hungry audience

388
00:18:02,263 --> 00:18:05,178
and feed the machine
and earn money by cranking out

389
00:18:05,179 --> 00:18:07,429
as many different Batman
titles as possible,

390
00:18:07,432 --> 00:18:09,853
they would hire ghost writers
back in the day.

391
00:18:09,888 --> 00:18:11,392
Bob Kane would get
credit for the story.

392
00:18:11,395 --> 00:18:13,145
He'd hand it in,
"Here's my Batman story."

393
00:18:13,147 --> 00:18:14,249
They're like, "Bob, you're a genius,"

394
00:18:14,273 --> 00:18:15,875
and, you know, that's
how the industry worked

395
00:18:15,899 --> 00:18:17,269
for a long, long time.

396
00:18:17,277 --> 00:18:19,674
Most ghost artists
or ghost writers

397
00:18:19,709 --> 00:18:22,073
were there just to
execute the vision

398
00:18:22,074 --> 00:18:24,824
or the work directive
of the guy hiring them.

399
00:18:24,827 --> 00:18:28,369
They weren't there to sort
of create new concepts.

400
00:18:28,404 --> 00:18:31,911
But because Bill Finger
was there at the beginning,

401
00:18:31,918 --> 00:18:33,919
he wasn't just a ghost writer.

402
00:18:33,921 --> 00:18:37,431
He wasn't just the guy
that was brought on later on

403
00:18:37,466 --> 00:18:40,426
when Batman was already
running and successful

404
00:18:40,429 --> 00:18:43,230
and all the tropes were in place.

405
00:18:43,265 --> 00:18:46,936
Bill Finger basically
created all those tropes,

406
00:18:46,971 --> 00:18:51,526
but in the actual work hierarchy

407
00:18:51,561 --> 00:18:54,195
as just a ghost writer.

408
00:18:56,197 --> 00:18:58,157
[birds chirping]

409
00:18:58,192 --> 00:19:01,368
I had never researched
a person to this extent.

410
00:19:01,370 --> 00:19:03,950
I mean, this became such a quest,

411
00:19:03,955 --> 00:19:05,048
and there just seemed to be

412
00:19:05,083 --> 00:19:07,967
such a higher moral
obligation to this.

413
00:19:08,002 --> 00:19:11,463
You know, this is 700 pages
of information on a subject

414
00:19:11,465 --> 00:19:12,817
that some people told
me at the beginning,

415
00:19:12,841 --> 00:19:14,772
"There's nothing more to
learn about Bill Finger."

416
00:19:14,796 --> 00:19:17,391
I did feel this calling to do this.

417
00:19:17,426 --> 00:19:19,973
Especially with something as
phenomenally successful as Batman,

418
00:19:19,974 --> 00:19:23,155
how could this not have
been so well-known?

419
00:19:23,395 --> 00:19:25,986
The first panel of
the first Batman story,

420
00:19:26,021 --> 00:19:29,313
just setting up this mysterious,
foreboding character says,

421
00:19:29,318 --> 00:19:31,912
"His identity remains unknown."

422
00:19:31,947 --> 00:19:34,367
Obviously that's Bill
writing about Batman,

423
00:19:34,402 --> 00:19:36,250
but it ended up being a prophesy

424
00:19:36,285 --> 00:19:39,514
because Bill was
Batman's secret identity.

425
00:19:39,549 --> 00:19:42,745
When I started the
research on this project,

426
00:19:42,751 --> 00:19:46,261
there were only two known photos
of Bill in circulation.

427
00:19:46,296 --> 00:19:48,837
It was either him with
a baseball cap in profile

428
00:19:48,842 --> 00:19:53,682
or him golfing, half in
shadow and not that close.

429
00:19:53,717 --> 00:19:56,315
From seven sources
over nine months,

430
00:19:56,350 --> 00:19:59,810
I ended up finding
11 more photos of Bill.

431
00:19:59,812 --> 00:20:02,273
He was interviewed
only a few times,

432
00:20:02,274 --> 00:20:03,984
so for a man of Bill's impact

433
00:20:04,019 --> 00:20:06,574
to have only these few
recorded interviews

434
00:20:06,609 --> 00:20:08,162
in existence is just staggering,

435
00:20:08,197 --> 00:20:12,197
so the first time was
Jerry Bail's in 1965

436
00:20:12,201 --> 00:20:16,372
and then for the 1970 book
History of Comics.

437
00:20:16,373 --> 00:20:18,663
And it turns out that in 1972,

438
00:20:18,667 --> 00:20:21,588
a man in California
named Robert Porfirio

439
00:20:21,623 --> 00:20:23,680
interviewed Bill on audio.

440
00:20:23,715 --> 00:20:25,014
It took a while, but eventually

441
00:20:25,049 --> 00:20:27,510
we actually did find
this audio recording...

442
00:20:27,511 --> 00:20:30,091
Testing, one... do you want
to say something, or...?

443
00:20:30,097 --> 00:20:33,056
Yeah, sure.
How are you?

444
00:20:33,059 --> 00:20:37,069
...which was one of the
more emotional moments

445
00:20:37,104 --> 00:20:38,183
I would say, for me,
because it was

446
00:20:38,190 --> 00:20:40,401
the first time that
I heard Bill's voice.

447
00:21:07,098 --> 00:21:10,850
To write this book,
I spoke to more than 250 people.

448
00:21:10,853 --> 00:21:14,653
Of that number,
a handful, maybe a dozen,

449
00:21:14,688 --> 00:21:17,360
knew both Bill
and Bob personally.

450
00:21:17,361 --> 00:21:20,204
Two of the creators
that were hugely helpful

451
00:21:20,239 --> 00:21:23,820
and impactful in this
process were Jerry Robinson,

452
00:21:23,827 --> 00:21:25,997
one of the earliest
Batman ghost artists,

453
00:21:26,032 --> 00:21:27,587
and Carmine Infantino.

454
00:21:27,622 --> 00:21:30,916
He was the artist that redefined
Batman's look in the '60s,

455
00:21:30,918 --> 00:21:32,838
and Carmine went on
to become the publisher

456
00:21:32,873 --> 00:21:35,483
of DC Comics for a time in the '70s.

457
00:21:35,518 --> 00:21:39,726
He was genius, literally genius.
I believe that.

458
00:21:39,761 --> 00:21:41,972
I know Bob tried to take
credit for everything.

459
00:21:41,973 --> 00:21:46,353
He should have been credited
as co-creator of Batman.

460
00:21:46,388 --> 00:21:48,723
He said, "I'd like to
get some ownership."

461
00:21:48,730 --> 00:21:50,081
No, he didn't say, he said,
"I'd like to get

462
00:21:50,105 --> 00:21:53,065
a piece of that because I did it."

463
00:21:53,068 --> 00:21:55,881
So, but then he said,
"I can't afford a lawyer,

464
00:21:55,916 --> 00:21:58,694
and they know that,"
quote, "They know that."

465
00:21:58,700 --> 00:22:02,791
They told me in, you know,
in no uncertain terms,

466
00:22:02,826 --> 00:22:05,833
that they thought Bill Finger
was deprived of his legacy.

467
00:22:05,868 --> 00:22:08,468
He is the Batman, Bill was.

468
00:22:08,503 --> 00:22:11,093
Everything you would think
that's good, that's Bill.

469
00:22:11,128 --> 00:22:15,012
They take away their humanity
when you take away their credit.

470
00:22:15,047 --> 00:22:16,511
Basically both of them said,

471
00:22:16,512 --> 00:22:20,098
"Without Bill, there'd be no Batman."
It's that simple.

472
00:22:20,100 --> 00:22:22,850
And that's because
Bill did the following:

473
00:22:22,853 --> 00:22:25,643
Bill Finger was the
dominant creative force

474
00:22:25,647 --> 00:22:28,449
and original writer of Batman,

475
00:22:28,484 --> 00:22:32,034
Robin, the Joker,
Catwoman, the Riddler,

476
00:22:32,069 --> 00:22:34,321
the Penguin, the Scarecrow,

477
00:22:34,325 --> 00:22:37,035
Commissioner Gordon,
Bruce Wayne, and Dick Grayson.

478
00:22:37,036 --> 00:22:38,747
He named Gotham City.

479
00:22:38,782 --> 00:22:40,957
He nicknamed Batman
"The Dark Knight."

480
00:22:40,992 --> 00:22:43,047
He was the first person
to write a story

481
00:22:43,082 --> 00:22:46,012
with the Batmobile and the Batcave
called those things.

482
00:22:46,047 --> 00:22:47,837
He wrote Batman's origin.

483
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,719
It was just a two-page story,
but it was seismic.

484
00:22:50,754 --> 00:22:53,599
This eight-year-old boy
sees his parents murdered

485
00:22:53,634 --> 00:22:55,177
right before his eyes
and makes a vow

486
00:22:55,182 --> 00:22:58,943
that he will not let this
happen to other people.

487
00:22:58,978 --> 00:23:01,227
I mean, the guy built this world.

488
00:23:01,230 --> 00:23:03,502
He kept what he called
the "gimmick book."

489
00:23:03,538 --> 00:23:05,776
He would fill that
up with story ideas,

490
00:23:05,778 --> 00:23:07,358
and he would just
sometimes take a bus

491
00:23:07,363 --> 00:23:09,073
around the city to get inspired.

492
00:23:09,108 --> 00:23:11,259
He would just notate
and just be an observer.

493
00:23:11,294 --> 00:23:13,409
He would do extensive
research for scripts.

494
00:23:13,411 --> 00:23:15,581
He would attach
clippings for the artists

495
00:23:15,616 --> 00:23:17,251
so that they would have reference.

496
00:23:17,286 --> 00:23:19,829
He thought very visually.
He thought cinematically.

497
00:23:19,835 --> 00:23:22,648
He would write these
big, epic scenes.

498
00:23:22,683 --> 00:23:25,460
One of the things that
he's best known for

499
00:23:25,467 --> 00:23:27,937
was writing stories
with oversized props,

500
00:23:27,972 --> 00:23:30,049
so Batman and Robin
fighting on top

501
00:23:30,056 --> 00:23:32,146
of a giant typewriter
with some criminals,

502
00:23:32,181 --> 00:23:35,104
and this stuff was just wildly fun
and inventive to look at.

503
00:23:35,139 --> 00:23:38,144
He had a hero
who looked like a villain.

504
00:23:38,148 --> 00:23:40,632
He had a superhero who
was also a detective.

505
00:23:40,667 --> 00:23:43,117
He was smart, he wasn't
just using brawn,

506
00:23:43,152 --> 00:23:44,693
he was using brains too.

507
00:23:44,698 --> 00:23:48,167
Bill took all this and put it in
a crucible and mixed it together

508
00:23:48,202 --> 00:23:51,322
and brought this
deeper sense to stories

509
00:23:51,330 --> 00:23:55,301
that up to that point were
considered somewhat frivolous.

510
00:23:55,336 --> 00:23:57,373
The aspects of the character, man,

511
00:23:57,379 --> 00:23:59,586
that Bill brought to
it, like the notion

512
00:23:59,621 --> 00:24:01,795
of a little boy in the
city with his parents

513
00:24:01,801 --> 00:24:04,051
who get gunned down,
and at a young age,

514
00:24:04,053 --> 00:24:07,429
that's what he's going to take
with him for the rest of his life.

515
00:24:07,433 --> 00:24:10,651
And the dude is just a human being
who's just a guy.

516
00:24:10,686 --> 00:24:12,226
That's it, got no superpowers.

517
00:24:12,229 --> 00:24:14,852
He's got some pretty nifty things
in his belt and stuff,

518
00:24:14,853 --> 00:24:17,867
but he's relentless.
He's a creature of passion.

519
00:24:17,902 --> 00:24:20,493
It's a character that
kind of keeps you reaching.

520
00:24:20,528 --> 00:24:21,819
It's a character
that people build

521
00:24:21,824 --> 00:24:25,625
their moral compass upon,
or, "That's my guy."

522
00:24:25,660 --> 00:24:28,700
That's what makes
Batman so beautiful.

523
00:24:28,707 --> 00:24:32,178
You don't get there
without Bill Finger, man.

524
00:24:32,213 --> 00:24:34,670
[music]

525
00:24:34,672 --> 00:24:36,632
♪ Batman ♪

526
00:24:36,667 --> 00:24:38,173
Week after week,
the Caped Crusader

527
00:24:38,177 --> 00:24:41,097
copes with the tricky
traps of vicious villains.

528
00:24:41,132 --> 00:24:42,855
[music]

529
00:24:42,890 --> 00:24:44,681
The breakout culturally,

530
00:24:44,684 --> 00:24:47,394
as well as simply
in the ratings books,

531
00:24:47,395 --> 00:24:51,066
was the 1966 Batman
television series.

532
00:24:51,067 --> 00:24:54,276
See the Dynamic Duo dangle
from new heights of danger.

533
00:24:54,278 --> 00:24:56,238
Careful, Robin,
it's quite a drop.

534
00:24:56,273 --> 00:24:59,082
This was not the dark and
serious creature of the night

535
00:24:59,117 --> 00:25:01,787
as created by Bob Kane
and Bill Finger.

536
00:25:01,822 --> 00:25:04,918
It caused quite a stir
in what was the beginning

537
00:25:04,953 --> 00:25:08,246
of the pop art phase
of America's culture.

538
00:25:08,252 --> 00:25:10,713
Be with Batman and
Robin twice weekly

539
00:25:10,714 --> 00:25:13,304
in color, of course, on ABC.

540
00:25:13,339 --> 00:25:17,221
[music]

541
00:25:17,222 --> 00:25:21,392
Starting with the debut of
the Batman TV show in 1966,

542
00:25:21,427 --> 00:25:24,143
Bill and Bob's trajectories diverged

543
00:25:24,146 --> 00:25:26,655
even more starkly than ever before.

544
00:25:26,690 --> 00:25:28,901
You know, Bob was
just going up, up, up,

545
00:25:28,902 --> 00:25:30,994
and Bill was really plummeting.

546
00:25:31,029 --> 00:25:33,949
The TV show changed
Bob's life dramatically

547
00:25:33,984 --> 00:25:37,030
because that's where he got
a big payout for Batman

548
00:25:37,036 --> 00:25:38,878
which made him wealthy.

549
00:25:38,913 --> 00:25:43,834
You stopped drawing the
comic book in the '60s,

550
00:25:43,836 --> 00:25:46,756
and what happened, did
you sell the rights then?

551
00:25:46,791 --> 00:25:49,216
No, it wasn't that,
when I stopped drawing,

552
00:25:49,217 --> 00:25:51,007
I never sold all the rights.

553
00:25:51,010 --> 00:25:55,097
- I own a piece of the Batman.
- And so you still have...

554
00:25:55,099 --> 00:25:57,233
you still have a
copyright on Batman?

555
00:25:57,268 --> 00:25:59,903
Well, everyone wants to
know that, don't they?

556
00:25:59,938 --> 00:26:02,818
- It's, I guess...
- I'll let you... I'll let you figure it out.

557
00:26:02,853 --> 00:26:06,656
- I answered it before, a piece of it.
- A piece of it, okay.

558
00:26:06,691 --> 00:26:10,486
It's a pie.
It's a pie that's cut up.

559
00:26:10,491 --> 00:26:11,999
[chuckling]

560
00:26:12,034 --> 00:26:15,655
After the Batman TV show,
Bob was able to parlay that

561
00:26:15,664 --> 00:26:20,075
into some degree of celebrity
without being directly involved.

562
00:26:20,110 --> 00:26:22,262
He was in full-on peacock mode

563
00:26:22,297 --> 00:26:26,968
displaying himself as
Batman's real-life alter ego.

564
00:26:26,969 --> 00:26:28,469
He wanted to be famous, right?

565
00:26:28,470 --> 00:26:31,811
I mean, which was odd
because most creative people

566
00:26:31,846 --> 00:26:35,318
in our industry just... they did it
for the creative reasons

567
00:26:35,353 --> 00:26:37,501
because they were
just manic artists.

568
00:26:37,536 --> 00:26:39,649
But I got a sense outta Mr. Kane,

569
00:26:39,650 --> 00:26:41,610
that it was like a plan and,

570
00:26:41,611 --> 00:26:45,205
"Oh, I got to do artwork
to get the quasi-celebrity,"

571
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,110
which was sort of
reverse engineering

572
00:26:47,117 --> 00:26:48,327
from what most of us do.

573
00:26:48,362 --> 00:26:50,043
We just go, "We do art,
and oh, by the way,

574
00:26:50,073 --> 00:26:52,636
people think we're
famous, oh, cool."

575
00:26:52,669 --> 00:26:55,873
And then I started
painting Batman oils

576
00:26:55,877 --> 00:26:57,887
and I have other
non-Batman art,

577
00:26:57,922 --> 00:27:00,422
and I've had shows all over
the world with my art.

578
00:27:00,424 --> 00:27:05,305
So he starts doing a series
of Batman lithographs,

579
00:27:05,340 --> 00:27:08,345
and he's pushing
these lithos as his,

580
00:27:08,350 --> 00:27:11,944
and, again, he's got
another ghost artist

581
00:27:11,979 --> 00:27:15,320
who's, you know, actually
doing these lithographs.

582
00:27:15,355 --> 00:27:19,953
Bob made his careers
by having other people do the work

583
00:27:19,988 --> 00:27:21,238
and putting his name on it.

584
00:27:21,241 --> 00:27:24,031
That was his...
that was his strategy.

585
00:27:24,035 --> 00:27:27,408
It was Bob Kane's pictures you
saw in magazines and newspapers.

586
00:27:27,413 --> 00:27:31,004
It was about Bob Kane's
art gallery showings.

587
00:27:31,039 --> 00:27:35,216
Bob became one of the first-ever
comic book celebrities.

588
00:27:36,758 --> 00:27:40,429
The Batman TV show did
almost nothing for Bill.

589
00:27:40,464 --> 00:27:41,679
The significance of it was

590
00:27:41,681 --> 00:27:43,641
that Bill was the
only writer from comics

591
00:27:43,676 --> 00:27:45,721
who wrote an episode
of the TV show.

592
00:27:45,726 --> 00:27:47,477
Actually, the Batman
show that he co-wrote

593
00:27:47,479 --> 00:27:49,439
with his friend
named Charles Sinclair

594
00:27:49,474 --> 00:27:53,410
was his only
published Batman credit.

595
00:27:53,445 --> 00:27:56,483
We did a Batman TV thing,

596
00:27:56,489 --> 00:28:01,210
and "The Clock King's Crazy Crimes,"
thank you very much.

597
00:28:01,245 --> 00:28:07,150
And Bill thought of all kinds
of gimmicks for clocks and time.

598
00:28:07,185 --> 00:28:13,085
When we got confirmation
that we had sold to Batman,

599
00:28:13,092 --> 00:28:16,682
Bill was kind of digging
his toe in the sand

600
00:28:16,717 --> 00:28:18,230
and hemming and hawing,

601
00:28:18,265 --> 00:28:20,385
and I knew he had
something on his mind.

602
00:28:20,392 --> 00:28:23,047
Finally, I said, "Come on, Bill,
what the hell's on your mind?

603
00:28:23,082 --> 00:28:28,290
There's something eating you.
What is it and how can I help you?"

604
00:28:28,325 --> 00:28:32,067
Well, it was the
billing on the show.

605
00:28:32,072 --> 00:28:37,493
Bill said, "Could I just
this once get top billing?"

606
00:28:37,495 --> 00:28:41,423
I said, "Sure, why not?"

607
00:28:41,458 --> 00:28:45,129
Bill Finger, at that point in time,

608
00:28:45,164 --> 00:28:48,839
had a little black-and-white TV set.

609
00:28:48,841 --> 00:28:53,840
I said, "Bill, you've got to see
this thing in color," you know.

610
00:28:53,847 --> 00:28:55,940
So I called a friend at ABC,

611
00:28:55,975 --> 00:29:02,686
and we went and sat in
a client viewing room...

612
00:29:02,691 --> 00:29:08,759
and saw this Batman thing,
Bill and I, on a big color set.

613
00:29:08,794 --> 00:29:12,407
Bill was
thunderstruck, you know?

614
00:29:12,410 --> 00:29:16,171
I don't know if he
actually had any tears

615
00:29:16,206 --> 00:29:17,495
running down his
cheeks, you know,

616
00:29:17,500 --> 00:29:20,500
but I think he came pretty close.

617
00:29:20,503 --> 00:29:24,594
Bang, he saw his name,
you know, top billing

618
00:29:24,629 --> 00:29:27,226
in color on a big TV screen.

619
00:29:27,261 --> 00:29:31,640
I mean, this was like the high
point of his creative life.

620
00:29:31,641 --> 00:29:35,270
[music]

621
00:29:37,057 --> 00:29:41,534
Most of the Golden Age writers
began to be phased out

622
00:29:41,569 --> 00:29:44,399
by the middle and
latter '60s at DC.

623
00:29:44,405 --> 00:29:46,956
A new era of talent
were coming in,

624
00:29:46,991 --> 00:29:50,204
fans who were becoming the
new writers of comic books,

625
00:29:50,239 --> 00:29:52,089
the new artists of comic books,

626
00:29:52,124 --> 00:29:55,214
and people from the
original generation

627
00:29:55,249 --> 00:29:59,180
were finding it harder and harder
and harder to adapt.

628
00:29:59,215 --> 00:30:01,349
The company was saying,
"Just because they may have

629
00:30:01,384 --> 00:30:04,094
co-created or written these
characters back in the '40s,

630
00:30:04,095 --> 00:30:05,556
we need young, fresh blood."

631
00:30:05,591 --> 00:30:07,886
Who cares if Bill Finger
writes Batman?

632
00:30:07,891 --> 00:30:11,528
There seemed to be a lack of
respect for his body of work.

633
00:30:11,563 --> 00:30:13,563
I mean, that's how some
people would interpret it.

634
00:30:13,565 --> 00:30:15,395
This was not just a guy
who created a character

635
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:16,783
that we've used a few times.

636
00:30:16,818 --> 00:30:18,609
This is a guy who
created an entire world

637
00:30:18,612 --> 00:30:21,413
that we are milking to the bone.

638
00:30:21,448 --> 00:30:24,199
So I can't even imagine what he felt.

639
00:30:24,202 --> 00:30:25,952
He spent the rest of the '60s writing,

640
00:30:25,954 --> 00:30:29,084
but not Batman, not even comics.

641
00:30:29,119 --> 00:30:31,217
He wrote carpentry articles,

642
00:30:31,252 --> 00:30:34,422
he ended up writing for
the Army Pictorial Center.

643
00:30:34,457 --> 00:30:36,883
So he was always
struggling for money.

644
00:30:36,884 --> 00:30:38,267
He was under strain,

645
00:30:38,302 --> 00:30:42,262
I think he was
skimping on medications.

646
00:30:42,264 --> 00:30:46,808
I don't think he was eating well,
and he was sliding,

647
00:30:46,811 --> 00:30:48,892
and I couldn't do
too much about it.

648
00:30:48,898 --> 00:30:52,028
He was just getting by
and slogging through

649
00:30:52,063 --> 00:30:54,236
and watching his
character get bigger

650
00:30:54,271 --> 00:30:57,157
than ever before and
being more detached from it

651
00:30:57,192 --> 00:30:58,287
than ever before.

652
00:31:00,035 --> 00:31:05,256
My very first comic convention
was the 1973 New York City

653
00:31:05,291 --> 00:31:08,832
July 4th Com Convention
at the Commodore Hotel,

654
00:31:08,837 --> 00:31:11,127
and the keynote speaker
of that convention

655
00:31:11,131 --> 00:31:13,651
was Bob Kane,
and I was a Batman fan!

656
00:31:13,686 --> 00:31:16,173
And I remember
standing in the back

657
00:31:16,179 --> 00:31:18,639
of this packed ballroom

658
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:22,311
where Bob Kane was a little speck
in the distance on the stage.

659
00:31:22,346 --> 00:31:24,811
But what do I remember hearing?

660
00:31:24,813 --> 00:31:26,836
"I created Batman,
I created Robin,

661
00:31:26,871 --> 00:31:28,858
I created the Joker,
I created the..."

662
00:31:28,860 --> 00:31:32,955
"I, I, I, I, I..."
that's what I remember.

663
00:31:32,990 --> 00:31:36,120
And the thing is... is that
we didn't know at the time,

664
00:31:36,155 --> 00:31:39,768
but Bill Finger was still alive
in the summer of '73,

665
00:31:39,769 --> 00:31:41,498
probably on his last legs.

666
00:31:41,500 --> 00:31:44,710
So what really upsets
me about Bob Kane

667
00:31:44,711 --> 00:31:47,712
is that right up until
the time Bill Finger died,

668
00:31:47,715 --> 00:31:50,804
his friend and partner
who co-created Batman,

669
00:31:50,839 --> 00:31:55,179
that gave Bob Kane a living and
notoriety for the rest of his life,

670
00:31:55,182 --> 00:31:59,308
he allowed to die
penniless and unknown.

671
00:31:59,343 --> 00:32:04,367
And for that, there is no
forgiveness for Bob Kane.

672
00:32:04,402 --> 00:32:07,272
In the early '70s,
Bill did begin to write

673
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:08,829
for comics again and for DC.

674
00:32:08,864 --> 00:32:10,615
He began to
write mystery stories,

675
00:32:10,617 --> 00:32:13,367
and he had two
stories due on a Friday,

676
00:32:13,370 --> 00:32:16,038
he turned in only
one and went home,

677
00:32:16,073 --> 00:32:18,708
presumably to finish
the second one.

678
00:32:18,710 --> 00:32:22,380
This was January 18th, 1974.

679
00:32:22,415 --> 00:32:24,551
He was living alone in Manhattan

680
00:32:24,586 --> 00:32:27,889
in a small apartment
in the same building as Charles.

681
00:32:29,639 --> 00:32:32,229
On this particular day,
I had not heard from Bill

682
00:32:32,264 --> 00:32:35,055
for like a couple of days,

683
00:32:35,061 --> 00:32:41,820
and I'm carrying a duplicate key
for his apartment.

684
00:32:41,855 --> 00:32:46,364
I went to the apartment,
and he was behind in his rent.

685
00:32:46,366 --> 00:32:50,747
The landlord had eviction
notices on his door.

686
00:32:50,782 --> 00:32:53,167
I used my key and went in.

687
00:32:53,202 --> 00:32:55,259
[music]

688
00:32:55,294 --> 00:32:58,387
I-I walked up to him.

689
00:32:58,422 --> 00:33:02,633
He had a blanket like
pulled up to about here.

690
00:33:02,635 --> 00:33:05,228
I pulled it down.

691
00:33:05,263 --> 00:33:08,144
Looked, looked, and looked,
you know.

692
00:33:08,179 --> 00:33:10,602
No movement, nothing, you know?

693
00:33:10,603 --> 00:33:14,774
And I reached down,
shook his shoulder.

694
00:33:14,775 --> 00:33:17,085
Nothing.

695
00:33:17,486 --> 00:33:21,039
Poor Bill had died alone

696
00:33:21,074 --> 00:33:24,364
with his little
television set going on.

697
00:33:24,369 --> 00:33:26,290
I thought, you know, what a...

698
00:33:26,325 --> 00:33:30,338
kind of a sad little end.

699
00:33:30,373 --> 00:33:34,505
[music]

700
00:33:34,506 --> 00:33:38,046
The world has lost
a very interesting guy.

701
00:33:42,264 --> 00:33:44,106
So when I asked Charles

702
00:33:44,141 --> 00:33:46,351
"What happened to
Bill after he died?"

703
00:33:46,386 --> 00:33:51,512
Charles said, "Marc, I don't think
we want to talk about that."

704
00:33:51,526 --> 00:33:54,327
And I said, "You're probably right.

705
00:33:54,362 --> 00:33:57,403
I know it's difficult,
but I do have to ask."

706
00:33:57,408 --> 00:34:01,646
And then Charles said that he
thought that Bill was buried

707
00:34:01,647 --> 00:34:06,669
in a Potter's Field.
It's a graveyard of unmarked graves.

708
00:34:06,704 --> 00:34:09,504
People that don't have someone
to take care of them.

709
00:34:09,539 --> 00:34:14,828
Homeless people... I mean, it's
desperately, desperately sad.

710
00:34:15,010 --> 00:34:17,521
The medical examiner report says,

711
00:34:17,556 --> 00:34:21,556
"natural causes,
no family, no history,"

712
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:25,187
which of course was referring
to his medical history,

713
00:34:25,189 --> 00:34:28,022
but when you read
that now, textually,

714
00:34:28,057 --> 00:34:30,857
it's eerie
because this medical examiner

715
00:34:30,863 --> 00:34:34,783
had no idea the immensely
significant history

716
00:34:34,818 --> 00:34:37,293
that this man had.

717
00:34:37,328 --> 00:34:39,748
So when I heard that,
I just thought,

718
00:34:39,783 --> 00:34:40,968
you know, just on a human level

719
00:34:40,992 --> 00:34:43,588
we've got to do
something for this guy.

720
00:34:43,623 --> 00:34:45,796
There are so many
fans who clamber

721
00:34:45,831 --> 00:34:47,707
for justice for the creators.

722
00:34:47,716 --> 00:34:49,365
I think in the end it takes more

723
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:50,976
than this amorphous mass of fans.

724
00:34:51,011 --> 00:34:53,721
There has to be one
person who steps up

725
00:34:53,722 --> 00:34:57,231
and leads the charge.
[music]

726
00:34:57,477 --> 00:34:59,110
When I started this project,

727
00:34:59,145 --> 00:35:00,856
I was already a published author.

728
00:35:00,891 --> 00:35:03,156
I wanted to tell another good story.

729
00:35:03,191 --> 00:35:04,560
And then when I learned

730
00:35:04,568 --> 00:35:07,655
how much there was to
reveal about Bill's life

731
00:35:07,690 --> 00:35:10,741
and how much more we
could do on his behalf,

732
00:35:10,742 --> 00:35:14,743
it became not only
a book but a crusade.

733
00:35:14,747 --> 00:35:17,917
My goal became getting
Bill's name on Batman,

734
00:35:17,952 --> 00:35:21,048
to get this man the credit
that will never go away,

735
00:35:21,083 --> 00:35:23,756
that will hang over all of this.

736
00:35:23,757 --> 00:35:25,349
I had a couple of people that said,

737
00:35:25,384 --> 00:35:27,884
"What you are trying
to do will never happen.

738
00:35:27,887 --> 00:35:32,892
This is a contractually bound line
that's been in place for 70 years,

739
00:35:32,893 --> 00:35:34,902
so what are you
going to do about it?

740
00:35:34,937 --> 00:35:36,977
What is any one person
going to do about it?"

741
00:35:36,980 --> 00:35:39,321
And I said to myself,
"I have no idea,

742
00:35:39,356 --> 00:35:41,607
but I'm going to try."

743
00:35:41,611 --> 00:35:44,532
[wind blowing]

744
00:35:49,607 --> 00:35:52,728
Here it is, Poe Park.

745
00:35:53,945 --> 00:35:55,948
So this is Poe Park in the Bronx.

746
00:35:55,983 --> 00:35:57,757
This is where Bill
and Bob would come

747
00:35:57,792 --> 00:35:59,530
and brainstorm ideas for stories.

748
00:35:59,535 --> 00:36:01,415
They would sit on
park benches here

749
00:36:01,450 --> 00:36:02,872
and discuss Batman.

750
00:36:02,908 --> 00:36:05,790
I had no idea that I would
be doing this kind of digging.

751
00:36:05,793 --> 00:36:08,646
This is the apartment
in which Bill was living

752
00:36:08,681 --> 00:36:11,501
in 1965 when he was
interviewed by Jerry Bails.

753
00:36:11,508 --> 00:36:14,638
He's also very righteous,
and he wants to, you know,

754
00:36:14,673 --> 00:36:18,761
he wants to do right in the world,
and so he is driven.

755
00:36:18,766 --> 00:36:21,269
Bill Finger was the
co-creator of Batman.

756
00:36:21,304 --> 00:36:23,774
And I am pretty sure
that he was living here

757
00:36:23,809 --> 00:36:25,182
at the moment that
he created Batman,

758
00:36:25,190 --> 00:36:27,900
so I think he was living
in one of these three units,

759
00:36:27,901 --> 00:36:30,119
and I'd love to see inside
if you could show it.

760
00:36:30,154 --> 00:36:31,694
- Yeah.
- The parallel was not lost on me

761
00:36:31,698 --> 00:36:33,908
that Bill made
Batman a detective,

762
00:36:33,943 --> 00:36:36,499
and I was a detective in
pursuit of Bill's legacy.

763
00:36:36,534 --> 00:36:38,205
That was part of the fun of it.

764
00:36:38,240 --> 00:36:41,083
- How did you find this out?
- I did a lot of research.

765
00:36:41,084 --> 00:36:44,903
I actually went through
the New York City phone book

766
00:36:44,938 --> 00:36:48,724
every year from 1930 to 1974
looking for my guy,

767
00:36:48,759 --> 00:36:50,588
and this is where it started.

768
00:36:50,594 --> 00:36:53,932
It became addictive. I felt
like, if I found this big thing

769
00:36:53,967 --> 00:36:56,562
that wasn't known,
there's probably more.

770
00:36:56,597 --> 00:36:59,641
[music]

771
00:36:59,647 --> 00:37:02,487
When I started the research,
we knew this much:

772
00:37:02,522 --> 00:37:04,283
Bill's wife was named Portia,

773
00:37:04,318 --> 00:37:07,029
they were married
sometime in the 1940s.

774
00:37:07,030 --> 00:37:10,489
I believe that their marriage
fell apart in the '50s.

775
00:37:10,492 --> 00:37:14,995
To try to legally contest a
credit line, you need an heir.

776
00:37:14,998 --> 00:37:17,375
That was my goal
was to find an heir,

777
00:37:17,410 --> 00:37:19,753
so very early in my
Bill Finger research,

778
00:37:19,754 --> 00:37:22,233
I learned that Bill
had a son named Fred.

779
00:37:22,268 --> 00:37:24,714
I was super pumped that
day because I thought

780
00:37:24,718 --> 00:37:28,635
it's going to take me less
than a day to find Fred Finger,

781
00:37:28,638 --> 00:37:29,888
and it took me less than a day

782
00:37:29,890 --> 00:37:32,601
to find out that Fred
was Bill's only child,

783
00:37:32,602 --> 00:37:36,189
Fred was gay,
and Fred died in 1992,

784
00:37:36,224 --> 00:37:41,147
which to me implied that he was
the end of the Finger family,

785
00:37:41,153 --> 00:37:42,619
that there was nobody left.

786
00:37:42,654 --> 00:37:45,275
And while I'm writing
a book to tell a good story

787
00:37:45,283 --> 00:37:46,916
and tell an important story,

788
00:37:46,951 --> 00:37:49,792
at the same time my goal
was to do what I could

789
00:37:49,827 --> 00:37:52,381
to see Bill's name
added to Batman,

790
00:37:52,416 --> 00:37:56,337
but I knew that to do that,
you need to be an heir

791
00:37:56,338 --> 00:37:57,668
and there wasn't one.

792
00:37:57,672 --> 00:38:00,056
So I was then going
to look for anybody

793
00:38:00,091 --> 00:38:03,512
who might have had some
connection to this man.

794
00:38:03,513 --> 00:38:05,513
Apparently when you are
doing detective work,

795
00:38:05,515 --> 00:38:06,814
you find yourself doing things

796
00:38:06,849 --> 00:38:08,600
that you wouldn't
expect yourself to do.

797
00:38:08,602 --> 00:38:10,892
For example, I called every Finger

798
00:38:10,896 --> 00:38:13,648
in the phone directory,
which was 500 names

799
00:38:13,683 --> 00:38:16,401
asking if they were
related to Bill Finger.

800
00:38:16,402 --> 00:38:18,112
Not a one was.

801
00:38:18,147 --> 00:38:20,862
I staked out the apartment
building that Portia,

802
00:38:20,865 --> 00:38:23,156
Bill's first wife, lived
in at the end of her life.

803
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:24,591
I figured there could still be people

804
00:38:24,615 --> 00:38:26,288
in the building who knew her.

805
00:38:26,323 --> 00:38:27,930
Next thing I know, I'm
sitting in an apartment

806
00:38:27,954 --> 00:38:30,008
with two lovely
women in their 70s

807
00:38:30,043 --> 00:38:32,463
who are in their nightgowns
at 6 o'clock at night

808
00:38:32,498 --> 00:38:35,253
telling me stories about Portia.

809
00:38:35,258 --> 00:38:36,968
When I didn't know
how to reach people

810
00:38:37,003 --> 00:38:41,146
that knew Fred, I posted fliers
in community centers

811
00:38:41,181 --> 00:38:42,652
targeting the gay
and lesbian community

812
00:38:42,676 --> 00:38:44,891
saying, "Does anybody
remember Fred Finger?"

813
00:38:44,893 --> 00:38:46,935
It was actually a flier
with the little pull-off things,

814
00:38:46,938 --> 00:38:49,728
you know, "I know Fred Finger"
[laughs]

815
00:38:49,732 --> 00:38:52,952
with my phone number.
Yeah, it's crazy.

816
00:38:52,987 --> 00:38:55,777
Bill Finger was a charming guy,

817
00:38:55,781 --> 00:38:59,452
but he was not, I think,
a forceful guy.

818
00:38:59,487 --> 00:39:01,202
He was making his own way,

819
00:39:01,204 --> 00:39:04,101
and it was kind of permanently

820
00:39:04,136 --> 00:39:07,000
on the outside looking in a bit.

821
00:39:07,003 --> 00:39:08,900
At some point, Charles said

822
00:39:08,935 --> 00:39:10,798
that Bill and Portia divorced

823
00:39:10,833 --> 00:39:12,020
and Bill was dating other people,

824
00:39:12,044 --> 00:39:16,645
and in the late '60s, he had a
lady friend named Edith Simmons.

825
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:19,301
That was what Charles
said, "a lady friend."

826
00:39:19,309 --> 00:39:22,681
I discovered that Edith was more
than just Bill's lady friend,

827
00:39:22,687 --> 00:39:24,280
she was his second wife.

828
00:39:24,315 --> 00:39:27,855
Someone that nobody in
comics had ever heard of.

829
00:39:27,860 --> 00:39:33,088
He was a very amiable, pleasant,

830
00:39:33,089 --> 00:39:36,574
and easy-going man.

831
00:39:36,578 --> 00:39:39,207
He had a good sense of humor,

832
00:39:39,242 --> 00:39:41,799
he... do you want
me to tell you

833
00:39:41,834 --> 00:39:44,585
- about the things he was interested in?
- Yes.

834
00:39:44,588 --> 00:39:47,222
She was, along with Charles,

835
00:39:47,257 --> 00:39:49,678
the two biggest finds
up until that point...

836
00:39:49,713 --> 00:39:51,299
the two people that I thought

837
00:39:51,334 --> 00:39:53,779
would ensure that
this was the first real

838
00:39:53,780 --> 00:39:57,258
version of Bill Finger
that we would get to know.

839
00:39:59,521 --> 00:40:02,732
He was interested in a lot of things.

840
00:40:02,734 --> 00:40:05,904
He loved ballet, for
instance, I loved it.

841
00:40:05,939 --> 00:40:07,954
We went together.

842
00:40:07,989 --> 00:40:13,210
He was very knowledgeable
about theater, about movies.

843
00:40:13,245 --> 00:40:18,120
He was proud of being a very,
very good comic book writer.

844
00:40:18,126 --> 00:40:22,338
There are several heroes,
in my opinion, in this story.

845
00:40:22,373 --> 00:40:24,423
When Lyn, his second wife,

846
00:40:24,425 --> 00:40:27,186
learned that they were making
a big budget Batman movie,

847
00:40:27,221 --> 00:40:30,471
which would become Tim Burton's
1989 Batman movie,

848
00:40:30,474 --> 00:40:34,105
she tried to get Bill
credit in that movie.

849
00:40:34,140 --> 00:40:35,974
This time it is to the big screen.

850
00:40:35,981 --> 00:40:38,649
Warner Brothers is
spending millions to bring

851
00:40:38,650 --> 00:40:41,318
millionaire Bruce Wayne
and his alter ego to life.

852
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:44,288
Is this a gamble for the studio?
Will Batman pay off?

853
00:40:44,323 --> 00:40:45,824
Will there be bat hysteria?

854
00:40:45,826 --> 00:40:48,446
When the first Batman
movie was coming out,

855
00:40:48,453 --> 00:40:51,213
my mother got very concerned

856
00:40:51,248 --> 00:40:54,419
that Bill was getting no credit for it.

857
00:40:54,454 --> 00:40:57,995
Estimates are that the final
price tag for the Warner Brothers

858
00:40:58,030 --> 00:41:01,181
movie will be in the 30
to 50 million dollar range.

859
00:41:01,216 --> 00:41:05,939
I thought he should get some credit
on the screen,

860
00:41:05,974 --> 00:41:10,814
and I tried to get in
touch with the managers

861
00:41:10,849 --> 00:41:16,479
or whoever it was to tell them
that Bill should get credit.

862
00:41:16,485 --> 00:41:17,986
We weren't interested in suing,

863
00:41:17,988 --> 00:41:20,615
because we weren't
seeking money,

864
00:41:20,650 --> 00:41:23,243
we were just seeking credit for Bill.

865
00:41:23,278 --> 00:41:26,087
I really dealt with the legal
department a couple of times.

866
00:41:26,122 --> 00:41:29,333
They weren't disagreeing
with Bill's co-creating Batman,

867
00:41:29,368 --> 00:41:31,374
there was no disagreement there.

868
00:41:31,378 --> 00:41:33,504
They just didn't want to get involved

869
00:41:33,539 --> 00:41:35,631
in something they didn't have to do

870
00:41:35,632 --> 00:41:39,883
that might open up some
liability issues for them.

871
00:41:39,888 --> 00:41:43,309
They, I would say, politely declined.

872
00:41:43,344 --> 00:41:45,568
That long-awaited
41 million dollar film,

873
00:41:45,603 --> 00:41:48,513
Batman, got an old-fashioned
kickoff last night

874
00:41:48,522 --> 00:41:50,157
when it premiered in Los Angeles.

875
00:41:50,192 --> 00:41:52,702
Thousands of fans, many
of whom waited all day

876
00:41:52,737 --> 00:41:54,654
outside the theater in Westwood,

877
00:41:54,689 --> 00:41:57,737
welcomed the scores of stars
who turned out for the opening.

878
00:41:57,742 --> 00:42:00,542
So of course the Batman
movie was a juggernaut.

879
00:42:00,577 --> 00:42:02,407
Batman owned 1989.

880
00:42:02,414 --> 00:42:05,674
Are all those people waiting now?
You're kidding!

881
00:42:05,709 --> 00:42:10,736
It's Batmania this summer.
Everyone wants to see this movie.

882
00:42:10,771 --> 00:42:13,168
That movie was stratospheric.

883
00:42:13,176 --> 00:42:15,686
I've been reading comic books
since I was six years old.

884
00:42:15,721 --> 00:42:17,575
They couldn't have done
this movie any better.

885
00:42:17,610 --> 00:42:19,429
Day by day, there are
more and more signals

886
00:42:19,433 --> 00:42:21,068
that a phenomenon is emerging.

887
00:42:21,103 --> 00:42:23,813
There is even a
1-800-BATMAN number

888
00:42:23,814 --> 00:42:26,565
in here to get your
merchandise to you faster.

889
00:42:26,567 --> 00:42:30,738
1989 is when Batman moved
from just another superhero

890
00:42:30,773 --> 00:42:34,499
to a fictional character
that everybody knows.

891
00:42:34,534 --> 00:42:37,243
At our first Batman premiere in 1989,

892
00:42:37,246 --> 00:42:40,707
Bob showed up in like
this black velour bat cape.

893
00:42:40,708 --> 00:42:43,331
Bob was fun,
and Bob was a showman.

894
00:42:43,366 --> 00:42:47,304
He loved the attention, he
reveled in the attention.

895
00:42:49,051 --> 00:42:51,516
My autobiography
came out, Batman & Me.

896
00:42:51,551 --> 00:42:53,981
At the height of the
movie of Batman One,

897
00:42:54,016 --> 00:42:58,146
it sold 250,000 copies.
That's the cover of me.

898
00:42:58,181 --> 00:43:01,606
That's the first Batman
I drew in 1939.

899
00:43:01,607 --> 00:43:04,608
[music]

900
00:43:04,611 --> 00:43:07,031
Doing the book was interesting.

901
00:43:07,066 --> 00:43:11,096
I helped design the book and
rewrote a lot of the book based on

902
00:43:11,097 --> 00:43:16,031
a lot of interviewing I did with him.
I interviewed him for hours.

903
00:43:23,550 --> 00:43:26,630
For me, the most significant
passage is on page 44,

904
00:43:26,636 --> 00:43:29,187
when Bob writes, "Now
that my longtime friend

905
00:43:29,222 --> 00:43:30,802
and collaborator is gone,

906
00:43:30,808 --> 00:43:32,935
I must admit that
Bill never received

907
00:43:32,970 --> 00:43:35,062
the fame and
recognition he deserved.

908
00:43:35,097 --> 00:43:36,813
He was an unsung hero."

909
00:43:43,948 --> 00:43:48,749
"I often tell my wife, if I could
go back 15 years before he died,

910
00:43:48,784 --> 00:43:50,536
I would like to say, quote,

911
00:43:50,539 --> 00:43:53,539
'I'll put your name on it now.
You deserve it.'"

912
00:43:53,542 --> 00:43:54,942
I remember when I read that,

913
00:43:54,977 --> 00:43:57,588
and several other people told me
they had similar reactions.

914
00:43:57,589 --> 00:43:58,879
They were just
dumbstruck, I mean,

915
00:43:58,882 --> 00:44:00,495
it was just like...
it's one of those things

916
00:44:00,519 --> 00:44:02,088
that'll just stop you
when you're reading it

917
00:44:02,094 --> 00:44:04,848
if you know anything
about the situation

918
00:44:04,883 --> 00:44:07,604
because you are looking
at a book written...

919
00:44:07,639 --> 00:44:10,691
allegedly written...
by the person

920
00:44:10,726 --> 00:44:14,189
who is totally responsible,
or almost totally responsible,

921
00:44:14,192 --> 00:44:16,192
for the fact that poor Bill Finger

922
00:44:16,194 --> 00:44:19,254
never got the credit
he deserved for Batman.

923
00:44:29,209 --> 00:44:34,793
He did have regrets at the end
about Bill not getting credit.

924
00:44:37,385 --> 00:44:40,479
Never sufficient regret to fix it.

925
00:44:40,514 --> 00:44:43,344
I don't think he would've
ever put Bill's name

926
00:44:43,350 --> 00:44:46,936
on the strip at that time.

927
00:44:46,971 --> 00:44:51,856
It opens a legal can of worms
when he told me that,

928
00:44:51,860 --> 00:44:54,662
which he wouldn't have wanted to
get into, because then it wouldn't...

929
00:44:54,697 --> 00:44:58,559
it would be not only credit
but money.

930
00:44:59,786 --> 00:45:01,746
The other especially notable thing

931
00:45:01,781 --> 00:45:06,087
about Bob's book is
this series of sketches,

932
00:45:06,122 --> 00:45:10,458
which are dated January 17th, 1934.

933
00:45:20,727 --> 00:45:23,058
- Yeah.
- He has these drawings

934
00:45:23,063 --> 00:45:26,023
that he says were
stashed away as a kid

935
00:45:26,025 --> 00:45:29,244
and wasn't sure whether to
make it into a bird or a bat,

936
00:45:29,279 --> 00:45:31,939
and he said that
when he was creating

937
00:45:31,948 --> 00:45:35,119
this new superhero, he
remembered these drawings

938
00:45:35,154 --> 00:45:38,089
he had made in 1934 in this trunk,

939
00:45:38,124 --> 00:45:40,496
and he went to get them
and this gave him the inspiration

940
00:45:40,499 --> 00:45:44,513
for making a character into a bat.

941
00:45:55,601 --> 00:45:56,734
Wow.

942
00:45:56,769 --> 00:45:58,809
I don't think that's
ever been corroborated

943
00:45:58,812 --> 00:46:01,113
that that's an
actual 1934 document.

944
00:46:01,148 --> 00:46:02,607
I mean, somebody should do

945
00:46:02,609 --> 00:46:07,371
a Shroud of Turin investigation
on those 1934 sketches.

946
00:46:07,406 --> 00:46:09,526
I mean, right away, the date alone,

947
00:46:09,533 --> 00:46:11,083
it's like you're telling me

948
00:46:11,118 --> 00:46:13,829
that at the dawn of
the comic book itself,

949
00:46:13,830 --> 00:46:16,500
which was created in 1933,

950
00:46:16,535 --> 00:46:21,051
before there were
superheroes, obviously,

951
00:46:21,086 --> 00:46:22,667
you're telling me
that you created

952
00:46:22,673 --> 00:46:25,757
a Batman-like character, Bob Kane.

953
00:46:25,792 --> 00:46:31,106
Looking at the drawing from 1934,
he's wearing a cowl,

954
00:46:31,141 --> 00:46:34,182
and his original Batman
drawing didn't have a cowl.

955
00:46:34,187 --> 00:46:37,525
It also... there's
a bat emblem on it.

956
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,865
The bat emblem was
suggested by Finger.

957
00:46:40,900 --> 00:46:42,880
These are not haphazard sketches.

958
00:46:42,915 --> 00:46:44,861
These are something put together

959
00:46:44,866 --> 00:46:47,826
by someone retrospectively
trying to talk about

960
00:46:47,828 --> 00:46:50,291
how they came up
with this character.

961
00:47:02,177 --> 00:47:05,138
In this case, for a man to say,

962
00:47:05,140 --> 00:47:07,393
"Bill created a costume,
but here's my drawing

963
00:47:07,394 --> 00:47:10,687
of the same costume
five years before."

964
00:47:10,688 --> 00:47:13,127
There's just no
way to look at that

965
00:47:13,162 --> 00:47:15,568
and not see...
see the scam going on,

966
00:47:15,569 --> 00:47:18,069
see a man who's
desperately trying

967
00:47:18,071 --> 00:47:22,333
to hold onto something that
he knows is not rightfully his.

968
00:47:22,368 --> 00:47:24,238
At some point, if you tell the story

969
00:47:24,245 --> 00:47:26,933
enough to yourself, then it just...

970
00:47:26,968 --> 00:47:29,623
your perception
is now your reality.

971
00:47:31,086 --> 00:47:33,419
I do think that over time,
Bob started to feel differently

972
00:47:33,454 --> 00:47:34,753
than he felt when he was younger,

973
00:47:34,757 --> 00:47:36,427
but he probably felt
trapped by the myth

974
00:47:36,462 --> 00:47:38,426
of Bob Kane, which he created,

975
00:47:38,428 --> 00:47:40,311
and I think he probably thought,

976
00:47:40,346 --> 00:47:42,727
"I'm going to look much
worse if I come clean now..."

977
00:47:42,762 --> 00:47:44,829
even if maybe his
conscience was saying

978
00:47:44,864 --> 00:47:46,435
it would be the right...
better thing to do,

979
00:47:46,459 --> 00:47:48,434
"...than if I just... let's see
how long I can ride this out.

980
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:50,400
Maybe I can get to the grave

981
00:47:50,435 --> 00:47:53,121
with no one really
challenging me on this."

982
00:47:53,156 --> 00:47:55,322
One day, when I'm 120 or so,

983
00:47:55,323 --> 00:47:57,943
I'll look down from
the bat cave in the sky

984
00:47:57,950 --> 00:48:00,501
at my little creation
that goes on and on and on,

985
00:48:00,536 --> 00:48:02,706
and I'll just say,
"Hey, Warner Brothers

986
00:48:02,741 --> 00:48:06,125
and Leonardo, just send me
the residuals in the sky.

987
00:48:06,127 --> 00:48:07,167
I'll give you my address,

988
00:48:07,170 --> 00:48:10,970
it's up there where the angels are."

989
00:48:11,005 --> 00:48:12,600
Bob died in 1998.

990
00:48:12,635 --> 00:48:14,425
He got to live
through seeing Batman

991
00:48:14,428 --> 00:48:16,770
become a worldwide phenomenon,

992
00:48:16,805 --> 00:48:20,056
and had a proper obituary
in newspapers.

993
00:48:20,060 --> 00:48:23,350
He was mentioned
on nightly news.

994
00:48:23,355 --> 00:48:24,530
He went on to have a star

995
00:48:24,565 --> 00:48:27,405
on the Hollywood Walk
of Fame many years later.

996
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:31,492
Bill died in 1974
with no obituary,

997
00:48:31,527 --> 00:48:34,490
no funeral, no gravestone...

998
00:48:35,953 --> 00:48:38,414
virtually unrecognized.

999
00:48:38,449 --> 00:48:43,675
And Bob was remembered
as the creator of Batman.

1000
00:48:43,710 --> 00:48:47,139
His gravestone says, "God bestowed
a dream upon Bob Kane.

1001
00:48:47,174 --> 00:48:50,422
Blessed with divine inspiration
and a rich imagination,

1002
00:48:50,428 --> 00:48:54,018
Bob created a legacy
known as BATMAN.

1003
00:48:54,053 --> 00:48:55,685
Bob Kane, Bruce Wayne, Batman,

1004
00:48:55,720 --> 00:48:57,685
they are one and the same.

1005
00:48:57,687 --> 00:48:59,977
Bob infused his dual
identity character

1006
00:48:59,981 --> 00:49:03,862
with his own attributes:
goodness, kindness,

1007
00:49:03,897 --> 00:49:06,780
compassion, sensitivity, generosity..."

1008
00:49:06,815 --> 00:49:09,666
I didn't know him, and I'm
very careful to emphasize that.

1009
00:49:09,701 --> 00:49:12,541
I don't know what
he was like as a son

1010
00:49:12,576 --> 00:49:14,367
or a husband or a father,

1011
00:49:14,372 --> 00:49:16,006
and I want to think the best.

1012
00:49:16,041 --> 00:49:18,583
And, you know, he
had a right to be proud

1013
00:49:18,618 --> 00:49:21,126
of his role in Batman,
but professionally,

1014
00:49:21,131 --> 00:49:22,461
he was not Bruce Wayne.

1015
00:49:22,465 --> 00:49:25,882
He was not
what it says on his gravestone.

1016
00:49:27,888 --> 00:49:30,138
[birds chirping]

1017
00:49:31,809 --> 00:49:34,770
Every child grows up with parents

1018
00:49:34,771 --> 00:49:38,522
whose jobs become part of their...
the texture of their lives,

1019
00:49:38,557 --> 00:49:39,938
and unfortunately for my kids,

1020
00:49:39,943 --> 00:49:42,994
that was Bill Finger,
so my kids knew more

1021
00:49:43,029 --> 00:49:44,569
about Bill Finger
at a very young age

1022
00:49:44,574 --> 00:49:47,115
than some hardcore
Batman fans have known

1023
00:49:47,119 --> 00:49:49,379
at the peak of their knowledge.

1024
00:49:49,414 --> 00:49:54,467
- What about your daddy?
- You're my daddy!

1025
00:49:54,502 --> 00:49:57,712
- What's my name?
- Marc Tyler.

1026
00:49:57,714 --> 00:50:00,545
And what do I do all day?

1027
00:50:00,551 --> 00:50:04,181
- Work!
- What's my job?

1028
00:50:04,216 --> 00:50:06,601
Bill Finger.

1029
00:50:07,809 --> 00:50:09,693
What do I do?

1030
00:50:09,728 --> 00:50:12,979
- Bill Finger.
- But what does that mean?

1031
00:50:12,982 --> 00:50:15,742
Bill Finger.

1032
00:50:15,777 --> 00:50:18,278
- Who's Bill Finger?
- Bill Finger.

1033
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:21,948
- Is that my friend?
- Yes!

1034
00:50:21,950 --> 00:50:24,241
My daughter, for
all intents, grew up

1035
00:50:24,245 --> 00:50:27,295
with Bill Finger as a part
of the extended family.

1036
00:50:27,330 --> 00:50:31,001
My wife was very patient.

1037
00:50:31,003 --> 00:50:32,253
We were young and struggling,

1038
00:50:32,254 --> 00:50:34,884
and I was putting in a lot
of time for this project

1039
00:50:34,919 --> 00:50:36,975
because I did get
consumed by this,

1040
00:50:37,010 --> 00:50:39,090
and not to the point
that I was not showing up

1041
00:50:39,096 --> 00:50:41,730
for family events or forgetting
to put my shoes on,

1042
00:50:41,765 --> 00:50:45,896
but I was really
very focused on this.

1043
00:50:45,931 --> 00:50:47,445
Excuse me, Batman!

1044
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:49,231
Can I ask you a couple questions?

1045
00:50:49,233 --> 00:50:51,153
- Where's Batman from?
- Gotham City.

1046
00:50:51,188 --> 00:50:53,021
And what's his real name?

1047
00:50:53,028 --> 00:50:54,286
Bruce Wayne.

1048
00:50:54,321 --> 00:50:58,202
- And who created him?
- Bob Kane.

1049
00:50:58,237 --> 00:50:59,491
Just Bob Kane?

1050
00:50:59,494 --> 00:51:01,534
When I see people
wearing Batman shirts

1051
00:51:01,538 --> 00:51:04,249
or Batman clothes,
which I do all the time,

1052
00:51:04,250 --> 00:51:06,000
yeah, I do smile
to myself and think,

1053
00:51:06,001 --> 00:51:08,677
"Should I stop that guy and ask him
if he knows who Bill Finger is?"

1054
00:51:08,701 --> 00:51:10,590
- Who's Dick Grayson?
- Dick Grayson...

1055
00:51:10,625 --> 00:51:12,680
he's the first Robin,
also Nightwing.

1056
00:51:12,715 --> 00:51:15,260
- Who's Bill Finger?
- Bill Finger?

1057
00:51:15,263 --> 00:51:16,367
Him I don't know.

1058
00:51:16,402 --> 00:51:17,471
The story is so good,

1059
00:51:17,473 --> 00:51:19,726
anyone wearing a Batman shirt
would want to know it.

1060
00:51:19,761 --> 00:51:21,767
I have a few Batman T-shirts left

1061
00:51:21,770 --> 00:51:22,968
that I would like to give out.

1062
00:51:22,992 --> 00:51:24,145
- Does anybody want one?
- Sure!

1063
00:51:24,148 --> 00:51:25,728
All right.

1064
00:51:25,733 --> 00:51:27,058
They probably
looked at those shirts

1065
00:51:27,082 --> 00:51:28,360
and said,
"Wait, this isn't Batman.

1066
00:51:28,361 --> 00:51:30,201
This is Bill Finger...
who's that?"

1067
00:51:30,236 --> 00:51:31,606
It just got me thinking, well,

1068
00:51:31,614 --> 00:51:33,332
the only way this
would be possible

1069
00:51:33,367 --> 00:51:36,407
is if by some miracle
this book can be a part

1070
00:51:36,412 --> 00:51:38,912
of the larger
groundswell of support

1071
00:51:38,914 --> 00:51:40,875
that might be able
to overturn the idea

1072
00:51:40,876 --> 00:51:43,506
that you need to be an heir
to fight for credit.

1073
00:51:43,541 --> 00:51:45,383
Maybe there could be
enough public support

1074
00:51:45,418 --> 00:51:48,516
to say there's enough proof
that this person was involved

1075
00:51:48,551 --> 00:51:50,631
that we don't need an
heir to make this right,

1076
00:51:50,636 --> 00:51:52,855
to make this whole again.

1077
00:51:52,890 --> 00:51:56,526
I mean, maybe that can happen,
I mean, laws get overturned, right?

1078
00:51:57,895 --> 00:51:59,070
When I started this research,

1079
00:51:59,105 --> 00:52:02,065
we knew just about
zip about Bill's family

1080
00:52:02,066 --> 00:52:05,065
with the exception of the fact
that he had a son named Fred.

1081
00:52:05,070 --> 00:52:07,239
So I learned that Fred was a chef,

1082
00:52:07,274 --> 00:52:10,866
and I know that he had spent
some time on the west coast,

1083
00:52:10,867 --> 00:52:13,917
and it also turned out
that Fred had developed AIDS

1084
00:52:13,952 --> 00:52:15,954
and died in 1992.

1085
00:52:15,957 --> 00:52:19,878
He was the last surviving
heir of Bill Finger.

1086
00:52:19,879 --> 00:52:22,759
So my next approach was
to try to find people

1087
00:52:22,794 --> 00:52:24,588
on his first wife's side.

1088
00:52:24,593 --> 00:52:26,894
So her name was Portia,
and I decided to try

1089
00:52:26,929 --> 00:52:29,599
to look through the
New York Times obituaries.

1090
00:52:29,634 --> 00:52:31,809
[music]

1091
00:52:31,810 --> 00:52:34,229
Prior to 1981 if you get a hit,

1092
00:52:34,264 --> 00:52:36,614
you don't bring up the actual obit,

1093
00:52:36,649 --> 00:52:39,819
you bring up the whole page
where that obit appears.

1094
00:52:39,854 --> 00:52:42,189
So I did this for hours,
and I eventually found

1095
00:52:42,196 --> 00:52:44,471
the obituary for Portia's mother,

1096
00:52:44,506 --> 00:52:46,708
which means Bill's mother-in-law,

1097
00:52:46,743 --> 00:52:48,878
and in that obituary
there were three names.

1098
00:52:48,913 --> 00:52:52,542
Fred, Bill's son, which
I already knew, of course,

1099
00:52:52,577 --> 00:52:55,684
and two of Fred's cousins,
Judy and Eric Flam.

1100
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:58,791
So I searched them,
and it was at probably

1101
00:52:58,799 --> 00:53:01,344
about 11 o'clock at night
on the east coast.

1102
00:53:01,379 --> 00:53:05,498
Judy was in Massachusetts, too late
to call her, as excited as I was,

1103
00:53:05,499 --> 00:53:09,235
but Eric was in Arizona,
so I called him right then.

1104
00:53:09,270 --> 00:53:11,980
And when I called Eric,
I said, "I'm a writer,

1105
00:53:11,981 --> 00:53:15,484
and I'm working on a project
about a writer named Bill Finger."

1106
00:53:15,485 --> 00:53:17,445
And he said, "What did you say?"

1107
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:21,073
And I said, "Bill Finger,"
and he put the phone to the side,

1108
00:53:21,108 --> 00:53:23,157
and he called to his wife and said,

1109
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:24,450
"This guy's calling about Bill Finger!

1110
00:53:24,453 --> 00:53:26,832
Uncle Bill, no one's ever called
about Uncle Bill before!"

1111
00:53:26,867 --> 00:53:28,013
And then he came back
on the phone and said,

1112
00:53:28,037 --> 00:53:31,041
"Well, I don't know much.
My sister Judy would know more,

1113
00:53:31,044 --> 00:53:33,442
you can call her tomorrow,
but I think what you

1114
00:53:33,443 --> 00:53:35,840
really should do is talk
to Bill's granddaughter."

1115
00:53:35,842 --> 00:53:39,683
And I said, "But Bill
doesn't have a granddaughter!

1116
00:53:39,718 --> 00:53:40,760
He said, "No, but he does,"

1117
00:53:40,764 --> 00:53:43,184
and I said,
"Well, he had only one child,

1118
00:53:43,219 --> 00:53:44,933
Fred, who was gay, and that was it,"

1119
00:53:44,935 --> 00:53:46,696
as if I would know
better than the family.

1120
00:53:46,731 --> 00:53:48,348
And Eric said, "That is true,

1121
00:53:48,356 --> 00:53:49,707
he did have a son
Fred who was gay,

1122
00:53:49,731 --> 00:53:52,982
but Fred had a daughter."
[music]

1123
00:53:52,987 --> 00:53:54,620
When I first heard those words,

1124
00:53:54,655 --> 00:53:57,706
"You should look for
Bill's granddaughter,"

1125
00:53:57,741 --> 00:54:00,701
I feel like I saw
a movie marquee,

1126
00:54:00,704 --> 00:54:03,749
and it said, "The Heir to Batman."

1127
00:54:03,784 --> 00:54:05,300
[music]

1128
00:54:05,335 --> 00:54:08,858
And it made me feel like this might be

1129
00:54:08,893 --> 00:54:12,382
a bigger story than anybody realized.

1130
00:54:12,384 --> 00:54:14,844
The next day, I spoke with Judy.

1131
00:54:14,845 --> 00:54:17,806
Judy was the one who told me
that her name was Athena.

1132
00:54:17,807 --> 00:54:21,373
The best she could do was give me
her last known state, Florida,

1133
00:54:21,408 --> 00:54:23,898
so I was back to square one,

1134
00:54:23,933 --> 00:54:27,438
looking for an heir that
we did not know existed.

1135
00:54:27,443 --> 00:54:30,236
I did not find an Athena Finger
in the Florida directory,

1136
00:54:30,238 --> 00:54:33,278
so I wasn't even sure
that that was accurate,

1137
00:54:33,283 --> 00:54:36,408
so I ended up looking online
for any mention of her,

1138
00:54:36,412 --> 00:54:38,829
and I found record of her wedding.

1139
00:54:38,864 --> 00:54:41,247
She married a man
named Zaido Cruz.

1140
00:54:41,250 --> 00:54:46,847
So I found mention of a Zaido Cruz
on the website of a drummer

1141
00:54:46,882 --> 00:54:48,973
whose name was Lance,
if I'm not mistaken.

1142
00:54:49,008 --> 00:54:50,298
And I emailed Lance and said,

1143
00:54:50,303 --> 00:54:53,388
"Is this the Zaido Cruz
who's married to Athena Finger?"

1144
00:54:53,390 --> 00:54:56,264
And he said... he wrote back,
and I never spoke with him,

1145
00:54:56,268 --> 00:54:58,188
but this is the voice
that I heard, he's like,

1146
00:54:58,223 --> 00:55:01,740
"Yeah, man, hey, dude, I know Zaido!
Yeah, he's in my band!"

1147
00:55:01,775 --> 00:55:03,275
or "I've played with
him, we've jammed,

1148
00:55:03,276 --> 00:55:05,194
and you should totally look him up,

1149
00:55:05,229 --> 00:55:07,113
and you should find
them and, you know,

1150
00:55:07,115 --> 00:55:09,656
Athena should be easy to find!"
And I said, "How's that?"

1151
00:55:09,659 --> 00:55:12,327
And he said, "Well, just look her up
on her Myspace page."

1152
00:55:12,328 --> 00:55:17,132
In 2007, I was not thinking Myspace
or Facebook or social media at all.

1153
00:55:17,167 --> 00:55:19,337
So that was a revelation,
so thanks, Lance!

1154
00:55:19,373 --> 00:55:23,047
So I looked Athena up on Myspace,

1155
00:55:23,049 --> 00:55:26,470
and when I found the
only Athena Finger there,

1156
00:55:26,505 --> 00:55:30,115
the first thing I saw
was a photo of a dog,

1157
00:55:30,150 --> 00:55:33,727
and the caption was,
"My Dog, Bruce Wayne."

1158
00:55:33,729 --> 00:55:35,612
That was a fist pump moment.

1159
00:55:35,647 --> 00:55:38,783
I don't think I literally stood up
and did a fist pump,

1160
00:55:38,818 --> 00:55:40,108
but that's maybe not my character,

1161
00:55:40,111 --> 00:55:42,241
but in my mind I
was doing somersaults

1162
00:55:42,276 --> 00:55:45,319
and throwing the football down

1163
00:55:45,325 --> 00:55:48,200
and doing a dance in the end zone.
That was my moment.

1164
00:55:48,203 --> 00:55:50,621
So I had that moment before,
I had that moment with Charles,

1165
00:55:50,622 --> 00:55:55,343
I had that moment with Lyn,
but those things filled in gaps.

1166
00:55:55,378 --> 00:55:57,959
They didn't completely
change the story.

1167
00:55:57,965 --> 00:56:01,976
[music]

1168
00:56:02,011 --> 00:56:06,642
We are en route to
see Athena Finger,

1169
00:56:06,677 --> 00:56:10,852
the only heir to Bill Finger.

1170
00:56:10,855 --> 00:56:11,957
This would be a big shake-up.

1171
00:56:11,981 --> 00:56:15,191
If the credit line
to Batman was changed

1172
00:56:15,193 --> 00:56:18,194
after 72 years,
that would be a big deal,

1173
00:56:18,197 --> 00:56:19,737
and that would actually be a first.

1174
00:56:19,740 --> 00:56:21,660
I can't think of
another comics character

1175
00:56:21,695 --> 00:56:23,999
whose credit line
has been changed.

1176
00:56:24,996 --> 00:56:27,286
- Hello... hey!
- Hey!

1177
00:56:27,290 --> 00:56:28,814
- How are you?
- How are you?

1178
00:56:28,849 --> 00:56:30,301
- Good, how are you?
- Good!

1179
00:56:30,336 --> 00:56:32,876
- And here's Bruce Wayne!
- That's Bruce Wayne!

1180
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:34,130
How you doing?

1181
00:56:35,550 --> 00:56:38,028
I found out about Bill Finger

1182
00:56:38,063 --> 00:56:41,647
and his association with Batman
at an early age,

1183
00:56:41,682 --> 00:56:46,232
and I knew that my father
was excited and thrilled

1184
00:56:46,267 --> 00:56:48,360
about what his
father had created

1185
00:56:48,395 --> 00:56:49,897
with the Batman storyline,

1186
00:56:49,900 --> 00:56:53,691
and how he made it
what we love today.

1187
00:56:53,696 --> 00:56:55,914
Marc had found me,

1188
00:56:55,949 --> 00:56:58,569
and he explained
what he had been doing

1189
00:56:58,576 --> 00:57:00,787
and shared a bunch
of information

1190
00:57:00,788 --> 00:57:02,379
that he had found
that I didn't know

1191
00:57:02,414 --> 00:57:05,004
about Bill's family
and things like that.

1192
00:57:05,039 --> 00:57:07,871
She said to me, you know,

1193
00:57:07,879 --> 00:57:09,721
"I never knew my grandfather.

1194
00:57:09,756 --> 00:57:11,256
I was born two
years after he died,

1195
00:57:11,258 --> 00:57:13,678
so you could probably
tell me more about him

1196
00:57:13,713 --> 00:57:16,097
than I can tell you,
but I'm very interested

1197
00:57:16,132 --> 00:57:17,887
in hearing what you have to say."

1198
00:57:17,890 --> 00:57:19,112
Bill used to keep copious notes.

1199
00:57:19,136 --> 00:57:21,431
He had gimmick books
where he would jot down

1200
00:57:21,466 --> 00:57:23,727
an idea that he
would use in the future,

1201
00:57:23,730 --> 00:57:26,321
- and a lot of it was...
- It was kind of exciting,

1202
00:57:26,356 --> 00:57:29,027
but it also was upsetting.

1203
00:57:29,028 --> 00:57:32,039
It brought up a lot of this old stuff

1204
00:57:32,074 --> 00:57:34,654
that had been going on before...
around my father's death

1205
00:57:34,660 --> 00:57:36,370
and around my grandfather's death,

1206
00:57:36,405 --> 00:57:41,456
and just how everything was not really
in its proper place.

1207
00:57:41,459 --> 00:57:46,260
I told you that I found
an interview with your dad.

1208
00:57:46,295 --> 00:57:47,967
- Yes.
- And I have it.

1209
00:57:48,002 --> 00:57:49,757
Oh, you have it!

1210
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:51,910
He had to write a lot of stories

1211
00:57:51,945 --> 00:57:54,059
in order to make
any kind of money.

1212
00:57:54,094 --> 00:57:58,981
He would get together with a
couple of the other writers...

1213
00:57:59,016 --> 00:58:00,100
And I didn't know yet

1214
00:58:00,106 --> 00:58:03,327
that there was so much
trauma in the family.

1215
00:58:03,362 --> 00:58:06,482
It wasn't just a story of a girl
who never knew her grandfather.

1216
00:58:06,488 --> 00:58:11,112
It was also a story of a girl
who had issues with her father.

1217
00:58:11,119 --> 00:58:13,959
I haven't seen my dad in,
like, forever.

1218
00:58:13,994 --> 00:58:17,456
[music]

1219
00:58:17,460 --> 00:58:19,420
My parents split when
I was three and a half,

1220
00:58:19,455 --> 00:58:21,891
so I didn't grow up with my dad.

1221
00:58:21,926 --> 00:58:25,135
I only got to see him
maybe a couple times a year.

1222
00:58:25,170 --> 00:58:27,465
It was really like,
if we went to New York,

1223
00:58:27,471 --> 00:58:28,490
we would go to the restaurant

1224
00:58:28,514 --> 00:58:30,724
that he was working
at and have dinner,

1225
00:58:30,725 --> 00:58:34,980
or he might come up to Massachusetts
and spend a couple days.

1226
00:58:35,015 --> 00:58:39,024
It wasn't like I had extended
amounts of time with him,

1227
00:58:39,026 --> 00:58:41,737
which kind of sucked,
because I only had him

1228
00:58:41,738 --> 00:58:46,082
for such a short amount of time.
[music]

1229
00:58:46,284 --> 00:58:48,955
I was married six years.

1230
00:58:48,990 --> 00:58:51,085
I just understood
that he was bisexual

1231
00:58:51,120 --> 00:58:52,933
from the day that I met him,

1232
00:58:52,968 --> 00:58:57,596
and it wasn't a situation
that needed to be spoken of.

1233
00:58:57,631 --> 00:59:02,685
It was something that we
both understood and accepted.

1234
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:06,641
I learned that Fred
was HIV positive

1235
00:59:06,642 --> 00:59:09,272
the summer after I
was in the fourth grade,

1236
00:59:09,307 --> 00:59:12,060
so that's, what, 10?

1237
00:59:12,065 --> 00:59:14,855
I spent a week with
him during the summer,

1238
00:59:14,859 --> 00:59:18,740
and he and I were at
the beach in Long Island,

1239
00:59:18,775 --> 00:59:21,449
and he's like,
"I got to talk to you."

1240
00:59:21,450 --> 00:59:24,628
So he was explaining,

1241
00:59:24,663 --> 00:59:29,074
"This is what's going on,
and we don't know how long I have."

1242
00:59:30,377 --> 00:59:34,889
And then when he came to visit us
right before he passed away,

1243
00:59:34,924 --> 00:59:37,715
he was teeny-tiny, just skin and bones.

1244
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:40,470
I mean, he was down to nothing.

1245
00:59:40,472 --> 00:59:42,682
[music]

1246
00:59:42,683 --> 00:59:46,272
When he came to visit
near the real end of his life,

1247
00:59:46,307 --> 00:59:50,396
we asked him not to leave.
[music]

1248
00:59:50,401 --> 00:59:52,191
How did he respond,
what did he say?

1249
00:59:52,194 --> 00:59:56,197
He said, "I have to go back.
I have to die in New York."

1250
00:59:56,232 --> 00:59:59,947
[music]

1251
00:59:59,953 --> 01:00:03,624
That year was rough.

1252
01:00:03,659 --> 01:00:06,225
Being 15 at the time,
not quite an adult,

1253
01:00:06,260 --> 01:00:08,792
but had to deal
with real adult issues,

1254
01:00:08,797 --> 01:00:12,597
and I was very angry
about a lot of things.

1255
01:00:14,261 --> 01:00:18,182
And then, when he passed
away two months later,

1256
01:00:18,183 --> 01:00:22,528
I wasn't included,
I wasn't informed, I wasn't...

1257
01:00:22,563 --> 01:00:25,813
I just was excluded from everything.

1258
01:00:25,816 --> 01:00:28,197
I was really upset about it,
very angry about it

1259
01:00:28,232 --> 01:00:29,815
because I was his only child

1260
01:00:29,821 --> 01:00:31,991
and I should have been there
and I wasn't.

1261
01:00:32,026 --> 01:00:33,457
[music]

1262
01:00:33,492 --> 01:00:36,283
AIDS was still very new

1263
01:00:36,287 --> 01:00:42,994
and stigmatized and scary.

1264
01:00:43,003 --> 01:00:45,304
There was a lot of comfort

1265
01:00:45,339 --> 01:00:49,930
being with people who are
experiencing the same thing

1266
01:00:49,965 --> 01:00:53,907
and he created a family of friends

1267
01:00:53,942 --> 01:00:57,848
that were there
when it got tough.

1268
01:00:57,853 --> 01:01:02,728
So New York was where
he really had to be, he felt.

1269
01:01:02,734 --> 01:01:07,865
[music]

1270
01:01:07,900 --> 01:01:10,535
I still don't have closure.

1271
01:01:10,570 --> 01:01:13,796
I was excluded from everything.
[music]

1272
01:01:13,831 --> 01:01:17,331
[sobbing] I really was.
Sorry.

1273
01:01:21,131 --> 01:01:24,052
I wasn't even there
to spread his ashes.

1274
01:01:33,979 --> 01:01:36,069
I don't even know where he is.

1275
01:01:36,104 --> 01:01:41,235
[music]

1276
01:01:43,240 --> 01:01:47,037
When Marc Nobleman called me,
I said to him,

1277
01:01:47,072 --> 01:01:51,923
"I'm not sure that this is
beneficial to our family welfare,

1278
01:01:51,958 --> 01:01:54,248
for this to be brought up again."

1279
01:01:54,252 --> 01:01:58,763
We tried our hardest to do
something about it in the past.

1280
01:01:58,798 --> 01:02:02,758
I mean, I love Fred and
I wanted credit for Bill,

1281
01:02:02,762 --> 01:02:07,352
but we had spent years
trying to get the credit for him.

1282
01:02:07,387 --> 01:02:08,693
[music]

1283
01:02:08,728 --> 01:02:12,558
Fred really just wanted
his father to have recognition.

1284
01:02:12,565 --> 01:02:15,409
It was very important
for Fred to validate

1285
01:02:15,444 --> 01:02:18,944
the existence of his father
and his artistic talents

1286
01:02:18,947 --> 01:02:21,875
and he gave it his best.

1287
01:02:21,910 --> 01:02:24,820
I never went to DC,
Fred went to DC alone,

1288
01:02:24,829 --> 01:02:28,210
but I understand the way
that it was dealt with.

1289
01:02:28,245 --> 01:02:30,586
They treated you like you were family

1290
01:02:30,621 --> 01:02:33,482
but gave you nothing in return for it.
[laughs]

1291
01:02:33,517 --> 01:02:36,343
Anything to make you
feel comfortable

1292
01:02:36,378 --> 01:02:40,554
but they were keeping
everything for themselves.

1293
01:02:40,556 --> 01:02:43,543
After about the third attorney,
Fred just said,

1294
01:02:43,578 --> 01:02:45,518
"We just need to stop this, Bonnie,
and go on."

1295
01:02:45,519 --> 01:02:51,650
So Fred never got to see
his father get, on the screen,

1296
01:02:51,652 --> 01:02:55,628
"Co-creator William Finger."

1297
01:02:56,150 --> 01:02:58,366
The tradition in our family,
unfortunately,

1298
01:02:58,369 --> 01:03:01,119
is being excluded from everything.

1299
01:03:01,121 --> 01:03:05,540
There is this sense
of not being acknowledged,

1300
01:03:05,575 --> 01:03:09,958
of what I'm part of
and who my family was.

1301
01:03:09,965 --> 01:03:11,068
I remember in the third grade

1302
01:03:11,092 --> 01:03:14,342
we had to do this book on our lives,

1303
01:03:14,345 --> 01:03:17,516
so I included the information
about my grandfather

1304
01:03:17,551 --> 01:03:19,896
and his involvement
with Batman and stuff

1305
01:03:19,931 --> 01:03:22,986
and people wouldn't believe me
or they questioned me.

1306
01:03:23,021 --> 01:03:25,312
So for a long time
I kept quiet about it,

1307
01:03:25,316 --> 01:03:28,560
especially after my
father passed away.

1308
01:03:28,569 --> 01:03:32,620
I always kind of referred to it as,
like, the dark cloud

1309
01:03:32,655 --> 01:03:36,412
that hung over my head because
it was something that I knew

1310
01:03:36,413 --> 01:03:38,703
that needed to be corrected,

1311
01:03:38,707 --> 01:03:41,547
just didn't know
which avenue to take.

1312
01:03:41,582 --> 01:03:46,202
So it was always, like, looming.
[music]

1313
01:03:46,882 --> 01:03:48,943
I wasted no time in telling Athena

1314
01:03:48,978 --> 01:03:51,004
that I would be
disappointed in myself

1315
01:03:51,013 --> 01:03:53,638
if I didn't tell you that
this is your birthright

1316
01:03:53,673 --> 01:03:56,265
and I thought for a year
that nobody could ever do

1317
01:03:56,269 --> 01:03:57,809
anything about this credit line,

1318
01:03:57,812 --> 01:03:59,153
and I'm going to write this book,

1319
01:03:59,188 --> 01:04:02,399
but if we want a shot at
changing that credit line,

1320
01:04:02,401 --> 01:04:03,742
it has to be you."

1321
01:04:03,777 --> 01:04:06,897
I had been told for a long time
that it was kind of a dead issue

1322
01:04:06,905 --> 01:04:10,346
and I shouldn't really pursue it
and I should just let it be,

1323
01:04:10,381 --> 01:04:12,019
and it would take tons of money

1324
01:04:12,054 --> 01:04:13,659
and, like, all these other excuses

1325
01:04:13,664 --> 01:04:17,424
of why I shouldn't pursue
adding Bill's credit.

1326
01:04:17,459 --> 01:04:20,039
I encouraged Athena to contact DC

1327
01:04:20,047 --> 01:04:24,516
and at first she was
not keen on that.

1328
01:04:24,551 --> 01:04:27,632
She was a young mom
with a career and a life

1329
01:04:27,638 --> 01:04:29,279
and she said, "Of course
I've thought about this,

1330
01:04:29,303 --> 01:04:32,971
but this is too daunting.
I mean, where do you even start?"

1331
01:04:32,978 --> 01:04:35,898
It took some
convincing of Marc to,

1332
01:04:35,933 --> 01:04:40,684
"Athena, go, talk to them.
Call this person!" [laughs]

1333
01:04:40,719 --> 01:04:43,820
I'm like, "Eh, I don't know."
Like, I was really hesitant.

1334
01:04:43,855 --> 01:04:45,493
I didn't know what to expect.

1335
01:04:45,528 --> 01:04:46,693
[music]

1336
01:04:46,702 --> 01:04:49,752
But as soon as I spoke to them,
they invited me up to come

1337
01:04:49,787 --> 01:04:53,043
and take a tour of the office
when it was still in New York City,

1338
01:04:53,078 --> 01:04:55,253
which was very cool.

1339
01:04:55,288 --> 01:04:57,634
So then after that,
we went to the movie premiere

1340
01:04:57,669 --> 01:04:58,890
for "The Dark Knight"

1341
01:04:58,925 --> 01:05:02,295
and did the whole red carpet
and then the afterparty.

1342
01:05:02,303 --> 01:05:05,391
It was just like, "Woo!"
It was awesome.

1343
01:05:05,426 --> 01:05:08,481
It was a really amazing scene
seeing all these people

1344
01:05:08,516 --> 01:05:10,017
and it was like Hollywood.

1345
01:05:10,020 --> 01:05:12,572
Like, it was so cool to be there.

1346
01:05:12,607 --> 01:05:14,517
Like, "Oh my gosh,
I'm a part of this."

1347
01:05:14,526 --> 01:05:17,382
And then they just kept
inviting me to things.

1348
01:05:17,417 --> 01:05:21,415
You know, just really accepting
and, like, "Please, join in."

1349
01:05:21,450 --> 01:05:23,085
PR people got in touch with me

1350
01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:25,660
and informed me that they were
going to pay for the room

1351
01:05:25,664 --> 01:05:28,164
and fly me and
my friend out here.

1352
01:05:28,166 --> 01:05:30,877
I get to play movie star
for a little while.

1353
01:05:30,878 --> 01:05:33,025
The whole thing was very fast.

1354
01:05:33,060 --> 01:05:35,172
Finding the heir and then DC

1355
01:05:35,174 --> 01:05:38,175
being quite cooperative
about the whole process.

1356
01:05:38,178 --> 01:05:42,309
I was very surprised
by how that all happened.

1357
01:05:42,344 --> 01:05:44,018
They were very generous

1358
01:05:44,053 --> 01:05:49,143
and they did send me a bonus
sum of money for the movie.

1359
01:05:49,150 --> 01:05:53,320
It said, you know, "This is,"
you know, "for his contributions."

1360
01:05:53,355 --> 01:05:56,701
You know, "We're so glad that
you're part of the family now."

1361
01:05:56,736 --> 01:06:00,711
So I was like, "Oh, this is nice."

1362
01:06:00,746 --> 01:06:02,205
The term "Thank you payment,"

1363
01:06:02,206 --> 01:06:05,456
it's a case where
a company writes a writer

1364
01:06:05,460 --> 01:06:08,762
or an artist a check and says,
"We're giving you this

1365
01:06:08,797 --> 01:06:12,297
because you contributed something
or other to this character."

1366
01:06:12,301 --> 01:06:14,302
I guess that's the kind of
thing that the companies

1367
01:06:14,304 --> 01:06:17,054
have wanted to do
in the last few decades

1368
01:06:17,056 --> 01:06:19,817
as the things got to be
really big business.

1369
01:06:19,852 --> 01:06:21,060
There's so much money involved

1370
01:06:21,061 --> 01:06:23,231
and nobody wants a lot of lawsuits.

1371
01:06:23,266 --> 01:06:25,310
So it just makes a lot of sense

1372
01:06:25,316 --> 01:06:29,905
giving a few thousand dollars,
$10,000 or $20,000 to somebody.

1373
01:06:29,940 --> 01:06:33,151
You know, somewhere between
creator credit and hush money.

1374
01:06:33,159 --> 01:06:36,499
The Bill Finger story
has a number of imperatives.

1375
01:06:36,534 --> 01:06:39,207
There's the cultural side of this,

1376
01:06:39,208 --> 01:06:41,164
there is the moral side of this,

1377
01:06:41,199 --> 01:06:43,121
there is the financial side of this.

1378
01:06:43,128 --> 01:06:45,429
How much is Batman worth now?

1379
01:06:45,464 --> 01:06:47,557
A gob!
What are you talking about?

1380
01:06:47,592 --> 01:06:49,922
It's movies, it's toys, it's pajamas,

1381
01:06:49,928 --> 01:06:54,016
it's cartoons, it's comi...
I mean, it's a vernacular.

1382
01:06:54,051 --> 01:06:57,559
You say "Batman" to a grandma...
this is the greatest brand...

1383
01:06:57,562 --> 01:06:59,565
"Batman," grandma
knows through attrition.

1384
01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:02,856
When you open a comic book, there
it says, "Created by Bob Kane."

1385
01:07:02,859 --> 01:07:05,700
When you see the movies, it says,
"Created by Bob Kane."

1386
01:07:05,735 --> 01:07:08,345
Correcting that is something
that terrified everybody,

1387
01:07:08,346 --> 01:07:10,843
I think, for decades
because correcting that

1388
01:07:10,844 --> 01:07:15,925
isn't just a simple matter of putting
Bill Finger's name onto Batman.

1389
01:07:15,960 --> 01:07:17,787
It also opens up the floodgates

1390
01:07:17,794 --> 01:07:22,890
to a massive conglomerate
for potential revenue tapping.

1391
01:07:22,925 --> 01:07:26,885
DC Comics is one spoke
in the massive operation

1392
01:07:26,887 --> 01:07:29,389
that is Warner Brothers,
which is underneath Time Warner.

1393
01:07:29,391 --> 01:07:31,891
So, I mean, it's a huge
media company, of course,

1394
01:07:31,893 --> 01:07:36,948
and Batman is one of the biggest
money makers in fiction, period.

1395
01:07:36,983 --> 01:07:40,212
So DC was under
the umbrella of Warner Brothers

1396
01:07:40,247 --> 01:07:43,443
but as soon as we got
to "The Dark Knight Rises,"

1397
01:07:43,448 --> 01:07:47,953
Warner Brothers was really
overseeing all of the corporate side.

1398
01:07:47,988 --> 01:07:52,517
Which brings me into in 2012
when "The Dark Knight Rises" came out

1399
01:07:52,552 --> 01:07:54,545
and I got an email saying, you know,

1400
01:07:54,580 --> 01:07:58,255
"We would like to have
you sign this document

1401
01:07:58,257 --> 01:08:02,510
so that we can cut you a check,
so sign it and please return."

1402
01:08:02,512 --> 01:08:04,062
But the gist of it
was they wanted me

1403
01:08:04,097 --> 01:08:07,058
to terminate my rights
to any kind of claim.

1404
01:08:07,059 --> 01:08:11,690
They wanted me to close the door
on Bill getting any kind of credit.

1405
01:08:11,725 --> 01:08:15,013
They were trying to make me quiet.

1406
01:08:17,237 --> 01:08:19,529
- Yeah, right? So is this for you?
- Yes, please.

1407
01:08:19,532 --> 01:08:20,846
Alex or Alexis...

1408
01:08:20,881 --> 01:08:22,160
- Alex.
- Okay.

1409
01:08:22,195 --> 01:08:23,870
I had this blind faith all along

1410
01:08:23,905 --> 01:08:26,493
that I would see the book
through to publication.

1411
01:08:26,528 --> 01:08:30,374
Although, believe me, there were
plenty of roadblocks and obstacles.

1412
01:08:30,377 --> 01:08:32,189
So getting the book out
was a huge accomplishment,

1413
01:08:32,213 --> 01:08:35,963
just to see any book through
is something I'm proud of.

1414
01:08:35,967 --> 01:08:37,602
The book came out in 2012

1415
01:08:37,637 --> 01:08:40,553
and with it came
a chance to talk about Bill

1416
01:08:40,588 --> 01:08:43,470
in an arena that was
even bigger than a book.

1417
01:08:43,476 --> 01:08:46,528
Secret identities are for superheroes,
not the guys behind them.

1418
01:08:46,563 --> 01:08:49,103
I had the chance to do a TED Talk.

1419
01:08:49,107 --> 01:08:53,693
Bill Finger's life ended tragically,
but his story isn't over yet.

1420
01:08:53,728 --> 01:08:55,823
I was interviewed on NPR.

1421
01:08:55,858 --> 01:08:57,614
Now if you've seen
"The Dark Knight Rises,"

1422
01:08:57,618 --> 01:09:00,878
the name not there
is that of Bill Finger.

1423
01:09:00,913 --> 01:09:04,244
I had the chance to go
on Kevin Smith's podcast.

1424
01:09:04,250 --> 01:09:06,418
Does he have heirs, is there a family?

1425
01:09:06,453 --> 01:09:10,089
Yeah, well, that was the biggest,
uh, discovery of my research.

1426
01:09:10,091 --> 01:09:13,094
Legally I can't do anything
to change this, but she can.

1427
01:09:13,129 --> 01:09:15,054
She is Batgirl for heaven's sakes.

1428
01:09:15,089 --> 01:09:18,525
When you have somebody
who's speaking that loudly,

1429
01:09:18,560 --> 01:09:22,098
advocating that loudly
on behalf of a cause,

1430
01:09:22,105 --> 01:09:24,197
something is going to get done.

1431
01:09:24,232 --> 01:09:27,212
It incited this bubbling
movement, you know, where suddenly

1432
01:09:27,213 --> 01:09:30,194
you started hearing more
and more about Bill Finger.

1433
01:09:30,197 --> 01:09:31,747
He had no Batman of his own,

1434
01:09:31,782 --> 01:09:34,751
but I think you are Bill Finger's
Batman, for heaven's sakes.

1435
01:09:34,786 --> 01:09:37,279
You're the one that's
going to find him justice.

1436
01:09:37,414 --> 01:09:40,256
I kept talking about raising an army
and groundswell of support,

1437
01:09:40,291 --> 01:09:41,513
but I never actually
stopped to think about,

1438
01:09:41,537 --> 01:09:43,082
"Well, those are people too."

1439
01:09:43,087 --> 01:09:45,927
So that did start to really
become my driving force

1440
01:09:45,962 --> 01:09:48,266
was I can't let
all these people down.

1441
01:09:48,301 --> 01:09:50,801
So I was doing some
groundwork on one level,

1442
01:09:50,804 --> 01:09:52,134
but we needed
something else to happen

1443
01:09:52,139 --> 01:09:53,520
on another level.

1444
01:09:53,555 --> 01:09:56,306
[music]

1445
01:09:56,310 --> 01:10:00,646
It had been a year since
Marc Nobleman's book had been out.

1446
01:10:00,649 --> 01:10:03,319
So more people were
starting to contact me,

1447
01:10:03,354 --> 01:10:06,159
"Are you really
Bill's granddaughter?"

1448
01:10:17,835 --> 01:10:20,376
[laughter]

1449
01:10:20,380 --> 01:10:24,307
And this is her first
convention ever. [applause]

1450
01:10:24,342 --> 01:10:26,053
I brought Athena
into the conventions.

1451
01:10:26,054 --> 01:10:28,155
Whether we're talking about
a Wizard World convention,

1452
01:10:28,179 --> 01:10:31,350
or San Diego,
or the New York Comic Con,

1453
01:10:31,351 --> 01:10:33,181
I brought her into
a number that year,

1454
01:10:33,187 --> 01:10:35,821
to meet the fans
and to get her out

1455
01:10:35,856 --> 01:10:39,197
from those curtains that
she was staying behind,

1456
01:10:39,232 --> 01:10:40,994
to meet other people.

1457
01:10:41,029 --> 01:10:44,360
I had never been to
a formal convention before,

1458
01:10:44,366 --> 01:10:45,406
any of that stuff.

1459
01:10:45,409 --> 01:10:48,002
So I did my first panel,
I was so nervous.

1460
01:10:48,037 --> 01:10:50,541
I'm like, "I don't even know
what we're talking about."

1461
01:10:50,576 --> 01:10:53,045
The fans would ask her
questions and she would say,

1462
01:10:53,080 --> 01:10:55,043
"I'm learning about
these things from you."

1463
01:10:55,045 --> 01:10:59,757
She was learning things about
her grandfather and the legacy and

1464
01:10:59,758 --> 01:11:04,133
exactly what Bill did from all
of us because she'd grown up

1465
01:11:04,139 --> 01:11:06,389
with it being this thing
to be uncomfortable about.

1466
01:11:06,391 --> 01:11:09,022
Was it not just this wonderful
thing to tell everybody,

1467
01:11:09,057 --> 01:11:10,621
"Hey, my granddad was
one of the co-creators

1468
01:11:10,645 --> 01:11:12,265
of Batman," when
you were growing up?

1469
01:11:12,273 --> 01:11:14,243
Well, you would think
it would be a great thing,

1470
01:11:14,278 --> 01:11:16,815
but, um, growing up,
no, it wasn't.

1471
01:11:16,821 --> 01:11:20,573
I shied away from talking about it.
As I got older...

1472
01:11:20,574 --> 01:11:23,335
She's not eager to talk
to the crowd herself,

1473
01:11:23,370 --> 01:11:25,288
she's eager to get
the information out,

1474
01:11:25,323 --> 01:11:28,917
so she's doing it anyway.
And I think that's a bit heroic.

1475
01:11:28,918 --> 01:11:32,461
Part of Athena's grieving process
is going to Comic Con and talking

1476
01:11:32,463 --> 01:11:36,764
about her grandfather
and her father.

1477
01:11:36,799 --> 01:11:39,394
It's... It's wonderful to see.

1478
01:11:39,429 --> 01:11:42,100
And he would be right there with her

1479
01:11:42,135 --> 01:11:45,350
because it was something
Fred wanted for his father.

1480
01:11:45,353 --> 01:11:46,394
- Okay.
- There we go.

1481
01:11:46,397 --> 01:11:49,990
There was so much
support from people.

1482
01:11:50,025 --> 01:11:53,026
They really, really
wanted to see Bill's name

1483
01:11:53,029 --> 01:11:55,413
attached to Batman,
as it should be.

1484
01:11:55,448 --> 01:11:58,250
Comic book fans, their
fights are on the page.

1485
01:11:58,285 --> 01:12:00,956
They don't bring it into
the real world or anything.

1486
01:12:00,991 --> 01:12:03,705
But the fights that
they do get involved in,

1487
01:12:03,708 --> 01:12:06,417
it's not fisticuffs,
it's battles for what is right.

1488
01:12:06,420 --> 01:12:07,420
And how could they not?

1489
01:12:07,421 --> 01:12:10,430
Because the characters they read about
all the time do the same thing.

1490
01:12:10,465 --> 01:12:12,426
Those are your role models on the page.

1491
01:12:12,427 --> 01:12:14,637
So while Bill didn't train people

1492
01:12:14,672 --> 01:12:16,404
to fight for him after he was dead,

1493
01:12:16,439 --> 01:12:18,137
you have a bunch
of people who read

1494
01:12:18,142 --> 01:12:21,124
and were influenced by
the work of Bill Finger,

1495
01:12:21,159 --> 01:12:24,107
like this is what's right,
this is what's just.

1496
01:12:24,142 --> 01:12:27,357
So that's really where I got
a lot of pressure from,

1497
01:12:27,360 --> 01:12:29,675
was from the fans.
"Why isn't this happening?

1498
01:12:29,710 --> 01:12:32,240
Why isn't his name attached?
What's happening?

1499
01:12:32,241 --> 01:12:34,779
Why... what, what, what?
Tell me, tell me, tell me.

1500
01:12:34,785 --> 01:12:36,989
How, how, how?
Do, do, do."

1501
01:12:36,997 --> 01:12:41,998
And so I knew that something
was going to come out of it.

1502
01:12:42,002 --> 01:12:46,503
In 2014, WonderCon was
held in Anaheim, California,

1503
01:12:46,507 --> 01:12:49,310
and there was this Batman panel.

1504
01:12:49,345 --> 01:12:52,975
And an audience member
gets up to the microphone

1505
01:12:53,010 --> 01:12:56,516
and asks this question about,
"Will Bill Finger get credit?"

1506
01:12:56,519 --> 01:12:58,979
And there's just silence up there.

1507
01:12:58,980 --> 01:13:01,360
One member of the
panel says, "Crickets."

1508
01:13:01,395 --> 01:13:05,449
And a person working for DC,

1509
01:13:05,484 --> 01:13:09,115
Larry Ganem,
gets up and he says that,

1510
01:13:09,117 --> 01:13:12,669
"We're all good with
Finger and his family."

1511
01:13:12,704 --> 01:13:17,375
And that was when,
"Okay, we've got to reply to this."

1512
01:13:17,377 --> 01:13:20,011
Athena and I put
the statement together that,

1513
01:13:20,046 --> 01:13:25,177
"No, things are not all good
with the Finger family."

1514
01:13:25,212 --> 01:13:27,218
Timing is everything.

1515
01:13:27,222 --> 01:13:29,640
75th anniversary
of Batman's coming up,

1516
01:13:29,675 --> 01:13:33,891
it was the hundred year anniversary
of my grandfather's birth,

1517
01:13:33,896 --> 01:13:37,066
it was the 25th
anniversary of the '89 movie.

1518
01:13:37,101 --> 01:13:41,037
Like all this stuff was
coming together in 2014.

1519
01:13:41,072 --> 01:13:46,305
I called Athena and we had a
huge cry over Fred being gone.

1520
01:13:46,340 --> 01:13:48,745
And then we discussed it.

1521
01:13:48,746 --> 01:13:53,834
Maybe it's time that Bill Finger
got the recognition he deserved.

1522
01:13:53,836 --> 01:13:57,818
And that's when it became a fight.

1523
01:13:57,853 --> 01:14:01,802
I felt that the timing was right.

1524
01:14:01,803 --> 01:14:04,804
I knew it was either now or never.

1525
01:14:04,807 --> 01:14:08,067
And I think I
called my sister first.

1526
01:14:08,102 --> 01:14:10,763
We have different fathers,
she's older than I am.

1527
01:14:10,772 --> 01:14:14,318
She felt like it was
really a burden in her life

1528
01:14:14,353 --> 01:14:17,169
to have inherited this
controversy, basically.

1529
01:14:17,204 --> 01:14:21,082
Knowing that I was the only one
that could do it was a huge burden.

1530
01:14:21,117 --> 01:14:25,038
So it really... I wanted
to get it finished

1531
01:14:25,039 --> 01:14:28,043
knowing that I
only had one chance.

1532
01:14:28,078 --> 01:14:31,011
Being an attorney, I... I was able

1533
01:14:31,046 --> 01:14:34,546
to assess what resources
we had and didn't have.

1534
01:14:34,549 --> 01:14:38,010
So she contacted me
because she was seeking

1535
01:14:38,012 --> 01:14:43,599
a copyright attorney to help her
with the situation.

1536
01:14:43,602 --> 01:14:45,682
The copyright law says

1537
01:14:45,687 --> 01:14:49,988
that when two people
create parts of something

1538
01:14:50,023 --> 01:14:54,863
that are intended to be merged
into an inseparable work,

1539
01:14:54,865 --> 01:14:56,498
then it's a joint work

1540
01:14:56,533 --> 01:15:00,033
and each of them is a co-owner.

1541
01:15:00,037 --> 01:15:05,168
So coming into this, one of
the most commonly cited facts

1542
01:15:05,203 --> 01:15:07,803
of Batman lore is that Bob Kane

1543
01:15:07,838 --> 01:15:10,048
negotiated a contract
in which he would be

1544
01:15:10,049 --> 01:15:12,509
the sole creator
in perpetuity of Batman,

1545
01:15:12,510 --> 01:15:15,228
he would be the only
name listed as creator.

1546
01:15:15,263 --> 01:15:17,723
The only thing I've always
gotten from the people

1547
01:15:17,724 --> 01:15:19,594
that I have talked to at DC is,

1548
01:15:19,601 --> 01:15:23,279
"We know what your grandfather did,
we wish we could put his name on it,

1549
01:15:23,314 --> 01:15:26,315
but we can't because of
the contracts that we have."

1550
01:15:26,318 --> 01:15:29,028
This infamous Bob Kane contract

1551
01:15:29,029 --> 01:15:32,707
has never been publicly disclosed,
as expected.

1552
01:15:32,742 --> 01:15:34,872
I mean, these are big
characters, big companies,

1553
01:15:34,907 --> 01:15:36,659
they have no obligation so share

1554
01:15:36,663 --> 01:15:39,754
all of their contents of their vault.

1555
01:15:39,789 --> 01:15:42,790
If any company had an agreement

1556
01:15:42,795 --> 01:15:45,632
that clearly spelled out their rights

1557
01:15:45,667 --> 01:15:48,468
and that shut down
a copyright claim,

1558
01:15:48,503 --> 01:15:52,139
it seems to me that
they would produce that.

1559
01:15:52,140 --> 01:15:53,970
I don't know why you wouldn't.

1560
01:15:53,975 --> 01:15:55,855
It might be hearsay,
it might be a myth

1561
01:15:55,890 --> 01:16:01,044
that DC Comics is perpetuating
because it helps them.

1562
01:16:01,079 --> 01:16:05,489
Or it might be real
and the original source was Bob.

1563
01:16:05,524 --> 01:16:08,206
That is another interesting thing

1564
01:16:08,241 --> 01:16:10,742
about the copyright law
that was in play here.

1565
01:16:10,744 --> 01:16:12,034
Somebody is simply claiming

1566
01:16:12,037 --> 01:16:14,247
that they are the sole
author when they're not,

1567
01:16:14,248 --> 01:16:16,248
that's not really...
that doesn't really do it.

1568
01:16:16,250 --> 01:16:20,421
So then you look at what
did Bill Finger contribute?

1569
01:16:20,422 --> 01:16:25,184
Did that make him a joint author
or joint owner of the work?

1570
01:16:25,219 --> 01:16:28,099
Marc Tyler Nobleman
sort of taking this case on,

1571
01:16:28,134 --> 01:16:30,056
delving into the research,

1572
01:16:30,091 --> 01:16:33,033
and then, of course, Bob
Kane, you know, eventually kind

1573
01:16:33,034 --> 01:16:36,713
of helped by talking about
Bill's contribution himself.

1574
01:16:44,116 --> 01:16:47,418
Um, that was very important.

1575
01:16:47,453 --> 01:16:50,589
If poor Athena, like, had to start
with that threshold issue,

1576
01:16:50,624 --> 01:16:53,044
that just would have been
really, really difficult.

1577
01:16:53,079 --> 01:16:56,596
I mean, this is a huge
entertainment company

1578
01:16:56,631 --> 01:16:59,961
with an entire department
of, you know, attorneys.

1579
01:16:59,967 --> 01:17:02,348
And then there's,
you know, Athena Finger.

1580
01:17:02,383 --> 01:17:05,606
[music]

1581
01:17:05,641 --> 01:17:08,602
Sadly, for people
who are creating stories

1582
01:17:08,603 --> 01:17:12,565
about superheroes who are selfless
and saving people's lives,

1583
01:17:12,600 --> 01:17:16,869
there's not a whole lot
of generosity going on here.

1584
01:17:16,904 --> 01:17:20,735
You've got creators fighting
a company over a character.

1585
01:17:20,742 --> 01:17:24,789
And, you know, it's a classic
David and Goliath story.

1586
01:17:24,824 --> 01:17:28,837
And in these cases, usually
the underdog doesn't win.

1587
01:17:28,872 --> 01:17:32,205
As teenagers in Cleveland in 1933,

1588
01:17:32,214 --> 01:17:33,924
these two boys signed a piece of paper

1589
01:17:33,959 --> 01:17:35,934
that, in effect, sold their rights,

1590
01:17:35,969 --> 01:17:37,506
and they sold them for $130.

1591
01:17:37,511 --> 01:17:38,972
Well, they were just kids

1592
01:17:39,007 --> 01:17:41,012
and they were so anxious
to get published,

1593
01:17:41,015 --> 01:17:42,482
so anxious for recognition,

1594
01:17:42,517 --> 01:17:45,188
that they signed away their copyright.

1595
01:17:45,223 --> 01:17:47,057
Superman became what Superman is

1596
01:17:47,064 --> 01:17:53,115
because of DC building Superman
to the industry that it is.

1597
01:17:53,150 --> 01:17:57,659
But still, Siegel and Shuster
deserved a lot more than they got.

1598
01:17:57,660 --> 01:18:01,030
You know, they made
a couple of efforts

1599
01:18:01,038 --> 01:18:03,560
to get greater credit.

1600
01:18:03,595 --> 01:18:06,081
In their 1947 suit,

1601
01:18:06,086 --> 01:18:09,426
Siegel and Shuster did not
get ownership of Superman.

1602
01:18:09,461 --> 01:18:12,174
They did get $94,000 more,

1603
01:18:12,176 --> 01:18:16,137
but National Periodical
then owned Superman and Superboy

1604
01:18:16,140 --> 01:18:18,350
and fired Siegel and Shuster.

1605
01:18:18,385 --> 01:18:24,226
The creators of Superman
first sued over credit in 1947.

1606
01:18:24,232 --> 01:18:27,782
They were still working
for the company at the time.

1607
01:18:27,817 --> 01:18:30,908
So they lost the lawsuit,
they lost their jobs,

1608
01:18:30,943 --> 01:18:33,576
and the company
that became DC Comics

1609
01:18:33,611 --> 01:18:35,327
took their name off Superman.

1610
01:18:35,329 --> 01:18:39,580
In 1963, Siegel and Shuster
started another suit,

1611
01:18:39,583 --> 01:18:42,085
this one to win back the copyright

1612
01:18:42,120 --> 01:18:44,586
when it came up for renewal in 1966.

1613
01:18:44,589 --> 01:18:45,722
The court finding,

1614
01:18:45,757 --> 01:18:49,088
"Superman belongs to
National Periodical."

1615
01:18:49,094 --> 01:18:52,396
Long story short is
Superman has been

1616
01:18:52,431 --> 01:18:54,972
the subject of litigation
almost from the beginning,

1617
01:18:54,976 --> 01:18:58,446
and it's been going on
for decades at this point.

1618
01:18:58,481 --> 01:19:01,019
And most of the major
players are gone,

1619
01:19:01,025 --> 01:19:04,108
so it's passed on to
the second generation.

1620
01:19:04,143 --> 01:19:07,193
When you're dealing
with something so big,

1621
01:19:07,199 --> 01:19:09,055
the stakes are big on either side

1622
01:19:09,090 --> 01:19:10,876
of a challenge, of a contest.

1623
01:19:10,911 --> 01:19:13,452
And, you know,
the Superman situation

1624
01:19:13,456 --> 01:19:17,583
would not have instilled a lot
of confidence that you can win.

1625
01:19:17,585 --> 01:19:21,336
To push this type of a claim further,

1626
01:19:21,340 --> 01:19:24,934
you have to have the means

1627
01:19:24,969 --> 01:19:27,809
and, frankly, the money to do it.

1628
01:19:27,844 --> 01:19:30,806
And no single person, really,

1629
01:19:30,809 --> 01:19:33,650
even if you had
multi-millions in the bank,

1630
01:19:33,685 --> 01:19:36,290
would want to go
through that risk.

1631
01:19:36,325 --> 01:19:38,896
We would have been
possibly investing

1632
01:19:38,902 --> 01:19:42,447
five to ten years of our life
entering into a litigation

1633
01:19:42,482 --> 01:19:46,198
against a multi-national corporation.

1634
01:19:46,202 --> 01:19:50,163
Frankly, it was my strategy
to not go down that road,

1635
01:19:50,165 --> 01:19:53,505
but to, of course, make
it appear that we would.

1636
01:19:53,540 --> 01:19:54,426
[music]

1637
01:19:54,461 --> 01:19:56,672
We're going back so far in time.

1638
01:19:56,673 --> 01:20:00,133
If we're going to assume
that all of these things

1639
01:20:00,135 --> 01:20:02,895
that people said in the press were true

1640
01:20:02,930 --> 01:20:05,680
about Bill Finger and
about his contribution

1641
01:20:05,683 --> 01:20:07,274
and the way it went down,

1642
01:20:07,309 --> 01:20:12,560
then they each own half
of Batman as a whole.

1643
01:20:12,566 --> 01:20:15,527
There could be an argument
from the corporation's side

1644
01:20:15,528 --> 01:20:19,828
that it's not a joint work
because he was employee.

1645
01:20:19,863 --> 01:20:24,323
I've never heard of any document
that said that he was.

1646
01:20:24,329 --> 01:20:26,708
I never heard of
a document that said

1647
01:20:26,743 --> 01:20:29,089
he was working under
a work for hire.

1648
01:20:29,124 --> 01:20:30,875
So, here's step one and step two

1649
01:20:30,879 --> 01:20:31,919
and step three and step four

1650
01:20:31,921 --> 01:20:36,642
and all this leads to, hypothetically,
yeah, you take it back.

1651
01:20:36,677 --> 01:20:38,717
That's the leverage
of the copyright law,

1652
01:20:38,721 --> 01:20:41,022
to actually allow
people to take it back

1653
01:20:41,057 --> 01:20:43,150
or to put that large corporation

1654
01:20:43,185 --> 01:20:45,725
in the position of
having to renegotiate

1655
01:20:45,729 --> 01:20:48,730
their royalties or whatever it is.

1656
01:20:48,733 --> 01:20:52,342
I do believe that there
was risk on both sides

1657
01:20:52,377 --> 01:20:55,953
and we had highlighted
enough of that risk

1658
01:20:55,988 --> 01:20:59,994
to get them to talk to us,
and that was the goal.

1659
01:20:59,996 --> 01:21:02,213
[music]

1660
01:21:02,248 --> 01:21:06,044
I didn't imagine that I would
actually be at the final meeting,

1661
01:21:06,045 --> 01:21:10,507
but it took place in July,
it was closed door negotiations,

1662
01:21:10,508 --> 01:21:15,019
and it was a big deal on
so many different levels.

1663
01:21:15,054 --> 01:21:16,013
[music]

1664
01:21:16,014 --> 01:21:18,014
Somebody has a goal and
somebody else has a goal

1665
01:21:18,016 --> 01:21:19,650
and how do you negotiate

1666
01:21:19,685 --> 01:21:21,319
and maybe not make everybody happy,

1667
01:21:21,354 --> 01:21:24,565
but make everyone
not horribly miserable.

1668
01:21:24,566 --> 01:21:28,410
I don't know if they could tell,
but I was very nervous. [chuckles]

1669
01:21:28,445 --> 01:21:30,078
We really wanted to get credit,

1670
01:21:30,113 --> 01:21:33,574
but we didn't know
which way this was going to go,

1671
01:21:33,576 --> 01:21:34,956
we really didn't.

1672
01:21:38,582 --> 01:21:40,303
There came a point where
I wasn't leading the charge

1673
01:21:40,327 --> 01:21:42,051
anymore because I'm not family,

1674
01:21:42,086 --> 01:21:45,297
and there's only so far I can go
without being family.

1675
01:21:45,298 --> 01:21:47,508
Hey, Raf-bear.

1676
01:21:47,509 --> 01:21:48,611
- Good to see you, boy.
- Hello.

1677
01:21:48,635 --> 01:21:50,096
- How's my favorite fuzzball?
- Good.

1678
01:21:50,131 --> 01:21:51,096
Yeah?

1679
01:21:51,097 --> 01:21:54,809
So in the summer of 2015,
everything was building.

1680
01:21:54,844 --> 01:21:57,771
I could feel it.
And in September,

1681
01:21:57,806 --> 01:22:00,651
it felt like we were getting
to that tipping point.

1682
01:22:00,686 --> 01:22:02,360
[music]

1683
01:22:02,395 --> 01:22:05,780
It was September 18th,
it was a Friday.

1684
01:22:05,815 --> 01:22:08,153
I travel a lot, but I
happened to be home that day,

1685
01:22:08,157 --> 01:22:10,000
In fact, I was home alone.

1686
01:22:10,035 --> 01:22:14,978
And by chance I had this set of
things I had to do for the day,

1687
01:22:14,979 --> 01:22:19,674
and, very atypically, I finished
it pretty much before noon.

1688
01:22:19,709 --> 01:22:22,657
And the tweets and the emails
and the blog posts

1689
01:22:22,658 --> 01:22:24,881
and the Facebook posts
started to pour in.

1690
01:22:24,886 --> 01:22:26,386
And I had a couple hours to myself

1691
01:22:26,387 --> 01:22:29,940
where I was just catatonic almost.

1692
01:22:29,975 --> 01:22:33,813
The first person in my family
to come home was my daughter.

1693
01:22:33,848 --> 01:22:35,353
[music]

1694
01:22:35,356 --> 01:22:38,608
- Did you see it?
- Yeah!

1695
01:22:38,610 --> 01:22:39,910
What did it say?

1696
01:22:39,945 --> 01:22:42,445
"DC to give Bill Finger official credit

1697
01:22:42,448 --> 01:22:46,699
on 'Batman'" versus, I think,
"'Superman' and 'Gotham'"?

1698
01:22:46,703 --> 01:22:49,848
- Mm-hm.
- They're giving him the credit?

1699
01:22:49,883 --> 01:22:53,125
- They're giving him credit now.
- What?

1700
01:22:53,160 --> 01:22:55,710
What?!
[laughs]

1701
01:22:55,713 --> 01:23:00,017
How did you do that?
How did you do that...

1702
01:23:00,052 --> 01:23:02,432
"You did it, Marc,
you got justice for Bill Finger

1703
01:23:02,467 --> 01:23:05,515
and righted a lifetime wrong!
You are Batman for Bill!"

1704
01:23:05,516 --> 01:23:06,900
That's Kevin Smith.

1705
01:23:06,935 --> 01:23:08,616
There's quite a big difference
between me and Batman,

1706
01:23:08,640 --> 01:23:11,234
but I'll accept that
as a nice compliment.

1707
01:23:11,269 --> 01:23:13,361
"Bill Finger getting his justice."

1708
01:23:13,396 --> 01:23:16,442
That's from Kevin Conroy,
who was the voice of Batman

1709
01:23:16,445 --> 01:23:19,246
since the beginning of
Batman: The Animated Series.

1710
01:23:19,281 --> 01:23:21,740
"On my honeymoon
in Mexico from Ireland.

1711
01:23:21,743 --> 01:23:22,863
Just saw the news.

1712
01:23:22,869 --> 01:23:24,979
Thrilled for you, Bill,
and the Finger family."

1713
01:23:25,014 --> 01:23:27,088
But I'm pretty sure one
person who wasn't thrilled

1714
01:23:27,123 --> 01:23:30,733
was his new bride,
whose new husband is

1715
01:23:30,734 --> 01:23:33,221
tweeting about Batman
on his honeymoon.

1716
01:23:33,256 --> 01:23:35,716
But thank you very much, Burke.

1717
01:23:35,717 --> 01:23:38,178
"DC Entertainment and
the family of Bill Finger

1718
01:23:38,179 --> 01:23:40,427
are pleased to announce that
they have reached an agreement

1719
01:23:40,431 --> 01:23:43,812
that recognizes Mr. Finger's
significant contributions

1720
01:23:43,847 --> 01:23:46,061
to the Batman family of characters.

1721
01:23:46,063 --> 01:23:47,446
We are pleased to confirm today

1722
01:23:47,481 --> 01:23:49,824
that Bill Finger will
be receiving credit

1723
01:23:49,859 --> 01:23:52,489
in the Warner Brothers
television series 'Gotham'

1724
01:23:52,524 --> 01:23:54,777
and in the forthcoming
motion picture,

1725
01:23:54,781 --> 01:23:58,732
'Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice.'"

1726
01:24:01,748 --> 01:24:04,328
Our goal was to get
Bill's name attached.

1727
01:24:04,334 --> 01:24:08,296
That's what we did.
We changed history.

1728
01:24:08,297 --> 01:24:11,766
[music]

1729
01:24:11,801 --> 01:24:14,472
But in 25 years of
writing Batman comics,

1730
01:24:14,507 --> 01:24:18,513
1,500 stories in all,
including the first one,

1731
01:24:18,517 --> 01:24:21,020
Bill's name appeared
in a Batman comic

1732
01:24:21,055 --> 01:24:23,522
as the co-creator,
or the original writer,

1733
01:24:23,523 --> 01:24:27,326
exactly... zero times.

1734
01:24:27,361 --> 01:24:28,481
Because Bob Kane said...

1735
01:24:28,487 --> 01:24:30,871
I have often asked myself,

1736
01:24:30,906 --> 01:24:34,657
"Why has he been doing
this for all these years?"

1737
01:24:34,661 --> 01:24:39,565
And I do believe he's
just passionate about it.

1738
01:24:39,600 --> 01:24:43,407
He does believe in the
causes that he writes about.

1739
01:24:43,442 --> 01:24:47,215
You're probably wondering
if I found any photos

1740
01:24:47,217 --> 01:24:49,257
of Bill Finger in the backyard

1741
01:24:49,261 --> 01:24:52,095
mowing the lawn
with his shirt off.

1742
01:24:52,130 --> 01:24:56,644
And the answer is...
yes, yes, I did. [laughter]

1743
01:24:56,679 --> 01:24:58,404
You're welcome, ladies.

1744
01:24:58,439 --> 01:25:02,074
The driving force though, still,
is to right a wrong

1745
01:25:02,109 --> 01:25:04,494
and to try to stay
on that good side.

1746
01:25:04,529 --> 01:25:06,250
So you can't see Bill
too well from where you are,

1747
01:25:06,274 --> 01:25:07,529
but he's there in the shadows.

1748
01:25:07,532 --> 01:25:10,160
Marc always strives for equality

1749
01:25:10,195 --> 01:25:14,039
and it's really his whole being,
I mean, that's him.

1750
01:25:14,040 --> 01:25:16,330
He's very brave,
he's a very brave person.

1751
01:25:16,334 --> 01:25:20,345
He really... if he thinks that
something is not fair, he will go for it.

1752
01:25:20,380 --> 01:25:23,511
So I think that this is
not the end, to be honest.

1753
01:25:23,546 --> 01:25:24,880
There's always more to the story.

1754
01:25:24,886 --> 01:25:26,726
I mean, what I always
say is that no story

1755
01:25:26,761 --> 01:25:28,551
from history ends in a period.

1756
01:25:28,556 --> 01:25:29,910
They all end in a dot, dot, dot.

1757
01:25:29,945 --> 01:25:33,018
We're just waiting for
someone to find the next part.

1758
01:25:33,020 --> 01:25:38,710
[music]

1759
01:25:42,240 --> 01:25:44,080
Do you want to do
lashes as well?

1760
01:25:44,115 --> 01:25:46,075
- Sure.
- Yeah?

1761
01:25:46,077 --> 01:25:48,077
Again, I'm going to be
on film and stuff,

1762
01:25:48,079 --> 01:25:49,827
- so I want to...
- Yeah, we can add

1763
01:25:49,862 --> 01:25:51,574
- the lashes if you like.
- Okay.

1764
01:25:51,583 --> 01:25:54,176
So what are you guys filming for?

1765
01:25:54,211 --> 01:25:57,472
It's a documentary
about my grandfather.

1766
01:25:57,507 --> 01:26:01,470
He was the original writer
and co-creator of Batman.

1767
01:26:01,505 --> 01:26:02,850
- No kidding.
- Mm-hm.

1768
01:26:02,885 --> 01:26:05,011
That is awesome.
[laughs]

1769
01:26:08,312 --> 01:26:12,198
[music]

1770
01:26:14,610 --> 01:26:16,280
I don't have black socks.

1771
01:26:27,542 --> 01:26:29,082
Almost there.

1772
01:26:36,051 --> 01:26:38,927
All right, Alethia, tell me,
is it okay with the leather?

1773
01:26:49,525 --> 01:26:52,119
This is my tenth Batman premiere,

1774
01:26:52,154 --> 01:26:54,484
but it's very special
because this is the first time

1775
01:26:54,489 --> 01:26:56,699
that Bill Finger is
getting onscreen credit

1776
01:26:56,700 --> 01:27:00,621
in a major motion picture
for his co-creation of Batman.

1777
01:27:00,622 --> 01:27:02,934
And that's very,
very exciting to me.

1778
01:27:02,969 --> 01:27:05,248
It's amazing that
so many years later,

1779
01:27:05,252 --> 01:27:07,962
we are now en route
with his granddaughters

1780
01:27:07,963 --> 01:27:10,557
and great-grandson
going to a premiere

1781
01:27:10,592 --> 01:27:13,898
in which his name finally is
going to be up on the screen.

1782
01:27:13,933 --> 01:27:15,258
I'm very excited.

1783
01:27:18,893 --> 01:27:22,125
It was a curse in our lives.

1784
01:27:22,160 --> 01:27:25,359
Bill was unknown, unrespected.

1785
01:27:25,394 --> 01:27:27,819
[breaking voice]
My dad was in the same position.

1786
01:27:27,854 --> 01:27:31,530
I was trying to cope
with my father's death.

1787
01:27:31,532 --> 01:27:33,322
I'm hoping that I've broken that

1788
01:27:33,326 --> 01:27:35,577
by getting the closure for Bill,

1789
01:27:35,579 --> 01:27:38,060
for myself, and for my son,

1790
01:27:38,095 --> 01:27:40,541
so that we can move forward

1791
01:27:40,542 --> 01:27:46,429
and not have this dark cloud
following us around.

1792
01:27:48,394 --> 01:27:51,715
[music]

1793
01:27:51,722 --> 01:27:54,193
It's been ten years that
I've been telling this story,

1794
01:27:54,228 --> 01:27:58,229
and to hear that Bill died and
was buried in a pauper's grave,

1795
01:27:58,230 --> 01:28:00,531
in a Potter's Field, was devastating,

1796
01:28:00,566 --> 01:28:03,779
and that was the only
story that anybody knew.

1797
01:28:05,238 --> 01:28:11,242
Until I found two people
who both knew Fred, Bill's son,

1798
01:28:11,245 --> 01:28:13,456
and who both told me
a different story.

1799
01:28:13,491 --> 01:28:17,259
[music]

1800
01:28:17,294 --> 01:28:19,094
So what these two people said

1801
01:28:19,129 --> 01:28:21,380
was that Fred did come
forward after Bill died

1802
01:28:21,382 --> 01:28:23,382
and just... he was not
there the day that he died,

1803
01:28:23,384 --> 01:28:24,424
which is why he doesn't appear

1804
01:28:24,427 --> 01:28:26,740
in the medical examiner report.

1805
01:28:26,775 --> 01:28:29,052
Fred had his father cremated,

1806
01:28:29,057 --> 01:28:32,207
and he was living
in Oregon at the time.

1807
01:28:33,014 --> 01:28:35,449
And he took the ashes
to the shoreline

1808
01:28:35,484 --> 01:28:38,062
near where he lived.

1809
01:28:38,485 --> 01:28:43,979
Spread them on the sand
in the shape of a bat.

1810
01:28:45,452 --> 01:28:48,912
And let the water come in
and wash it out to sea.

1811
01:28:49,113 --> 01:28:54,846
[music]

1812
01:29:07,852 --> 01:29:10,107
- Have fun.
- Yeah.

1813
01:29:10,142 --> 01:29:12,531
[music]

1814
01:29:12,566 --> 01:29:15,987
Uh, one "Batman v Superman" please?

1815
01:29:17,658 --> 01:29:23,447
[undistinct chatter]

1816
01:30:07,946 --> 01:30:12,551
[music]

1817
01:30:30,626 --> 01:30:36,601
_

1818
01:30:36,602 --> 01:30:40,586
__

1819
01:30:42,323 --> 01:30:46,506
[music]

1820
01:30:48,206 --> 01:30:53,990