0 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:15,000 1 00:00:51,635 --> 00:00:54,763 People deserve to know the whole story. 2 00:01:03,689 --> 00:01:05,899 I came back from the dead. 3 00:01:05,899 --> 00:01:09,236 I felt like I owed humanity something. 4 00:01:16,243 --> 00:01:19,871 I wanted to bring gay marriage to Utah. 5 00:01:26,253 --> 00:01:27,713 It was the norm. 6 00:01:27,713 --> 00:01:30,882 Gay marriage was never gonna come to Utah. 7 00:01:32,342 --> 00:01:33,802 General attitude was that the Mormon Church 8 00:01:33,802 --> 00:01:35,512 was never gonna allow this in Utah. 9 00:01:35,512 --> 00:01:39,391 Well, let's not go to the Mormon Church with this. 10 00:01:39,391 --> 00:01:42,686 We have the federal laws, and we have the Constitution. 11 00:01:45,897 --> 00:01:50,277 They were afraid to stand up to the big giant. 12 00:01:52,237 --> 00:01:57,451 ♪ Gave proof through the night ♪ 13 00:01:57,451 --> 00:02:02,331 ♪ That our flag was still there ♪ 14 00:02:02,331 --> 00:02:08,837 ♪ O say, does that star-spangled ♪ 15 00:02:08,837 --> 00:02:15,427 ♪ Banner yet wave ♪ 16 00:02:15,427 --> 00:02:23,143 ♪ O'er the land of the free ♪ 17 00:02:23,143 --> 00:02:26,605 ♪ And the home ♪ 18 00:02:26,605 --> 00:02:32,152 ♪ Of the brave ♪ 19 00:02:42,204 --> 00:02:45,707 We thank you for being here this evening, 20 00:02:45,707 --> 00:02:48,001 and thank you for taking a stand for marriage, 21 00:02:48,001 --> 00:02:49,836 standing with Amendment 3. 22 00:02:57,302 --> 00:03:01,556 Each of us knows that this is a difficult and sensitive issue, 23 00:03:01,556 --> 00:03:05,560 but we can show the world that Utah can be for marriage 24 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:08,313 without being against anyone. 25 00:03:12,984 --> 00:03:14,736 Okay, I'm sorry. I'm just too excited 26 00:03:14,736 --> 00:03:16,738 to let this opportunity pass. 27 00:03:16,738 --> 00:03:20,575 I just wanna tell the room that Brian Brown, 28 00:03:20,575 --> 00:03:23,870 the president of the national organization 29 00:03:23,870 --> 00:03:26,456 has just entered the room. 30 00:03:29,835 --> 00:03:33,755 He has done more for marriage in the United States 31 00:03:33,755 --> 00:03:36,216 than anyone else. 32 00:03:41,638 --> 00:03:45,392 To the few pessimists out there 33 00:03:45,392 --> 00:03:49,062 that think that this is a losing cause, 34 00:03:49,062 --> 00:03:53,984 the immortal Don Quixote showed us the results. 35 00:03:53,984 --> 00:03:55,986 ♪♪ 36 00:03:55,986 --> 00:03:59,823 ♪ To dream the impossible dream ♪ 37 00:03:59,823 --> 00:04:04,327 ♪ Fight the unbeatable foe ♪ 38 00:04:06,496 --> 00:04:09,499 I think we should go down and see if we can catch him. 39 00:04:17,924 --> 00:04:19,134 Mr. Brown. 40 00:04:19,134 --> 00:04:21,136 - Hi, how are you? - Hi, good. 41 00:04:21,136 --> 00:04:23,847 I just wanted to introduce myself and welcome you to Utah. 42 00:04:23,847 --> 00:04:25,515 I'm Mark Lawrence. 43 00:04:25,515 --> 00:04:29,060 I'm the director of Restore Our Humanity. 44 00:04:29,060 --> 00:04:32,063 I brought the lawsuit that brought down Amendment 3. 45 00:04:32,063 --> 00:04:35,484 We're saying marriage is not only about a man and a woman. 46 00:04:35,484 --> 00:04:38,236 Marriage can be expanded to include everybody. 47 00:04:38,236 --> 00:04:40,238 Every loving couple who is together. 48 00:04:40,238 --> 00:04:42,032 Why not four, five, or six then? 49 00:04:42,032 --> 00:04:44,034 - That's not my argument. - But why not? 50 00:04:44,034 --> 00:04:46,119 I don't care. It has nothing to do with my life. 51 00:04:46,119 --> 00:04:47,954 - Well, I do care. - Why? 52 00:04:47,954 --> 00:04:49,664 The binary structure of marriage 53 00:04:49,664 --> 00:04:51,666 is in the best interest of children in society. 54 00:04:51,666 --> 00:04:52,876 It's important that children are connected 55 00:04:52,876 --> 00:04:54,503 with their mothers and fathers. 56 00:04:54,503 --> 00:04:56,296 But children don't have anything to do with this. 57 00:04:56,296 --> 00:04:58,131 This has nothing to do with children. 58 00:04:58,131 --> 00:05:00,884 Gay people have kids 'cause they want kids, 59 00:05:00,884 --> 00:05:02,302 not because they're married. 60 00:05:02,302 --> 00:05:04,137 If marriage has a meaning, 61 00:05:04,137 --> 00:05:06,306 then you take that meaning and you basically say 62 00:05:06,306 --> 00:05:08,183 it applies to everything. 63 00:05:08,183 --> 00:05:10,936 By expanding it in the way you're claiming, 64 00:05:10,936 --> 00:05:13,230 you no longer have any central meaning for it anymore. 65 00:05:13,230 --> 00:05:15,148 No, no, no, no. 66 00:05:15,148 --> 00:05:17,192 Again, we can agree to disagree. 67 00:05:17,192 --> 00:05:19,528 - Thank you for approaching me. - Thank you very much. 68 00:05:19,528 --> 00:05:22,155 I've been looking forward to meeting you for a long time. 69 00:05:22,155 --> 00:05:24,407 Good luck. Thank you, sir, appreciate it. 70 00:05:27,661 --> 00:05:30,664 That is a lifelong ambition, and I finally met him. 71 00:05:30,664 --> 00:05:33,333 I'm ready to die now. 72 00:05:36,169 --> 00:05:42,300 ♪ Still strove with his last ounce of courage ♪ 73 00:05:42,300 --> 00:05:47,055 ♪ To reach ♪ 74 00:05:47,055 --> 00:05:50,934 ♪ The unreachable ♪ 75 00:05:50,934 --> 00:05:59,317 ♪ Star ♪ 76 00:06:20,505 --> 00:06:23,675 My parents pretty much live at the poverty level. 77 00:06:26,553 --> 00:06:28,555 And I just made a decision one day 78 00:06:28,555 --> 00:06:31,266 that I should probably just move in with them for a while, 79 00:06:31,266 --> 00:06:33,768 but that was before my dad was diagnosed with Alzheimer's. 80 00:06:36,354 --> 00:06:39,899 So it just got to a point where I couldn't leave, 81 00:06:39,899 --> 00:06:42,360 and I'm still here. 82 00:06:53,371 --> 00:06:56,249 Well, I'm very proud of the work that you've been doing, 83 00:06:56,249 --> 00:06:58,627 and I don't know how you stay on top of it 84 00:06:58,627 --> 00:07:01,630 and help with your dad. 85 00:07:01,630 --> 00:07:05,008 I wouldn't have anything else to do. 86 00:07:05,008 --> 00:07:06,926 - Oh, sure. - I know you are, 87 00:07:06,926 --> 00:07:09,220 but I have a place to go and vent, 88 00:07:09,220 --> 00:07:12,474 so that's when I come home and hide down in the basement, 89 00:07:12,474 --> 00:07:13,975 and I'm okay. 90 00:07:13,975 --> 00:07:16,770 - Your dad supports you too. - I know. 91 00:07:16,770 --> 00:07:21,775 It was a big shock to both of us in the beginning 92 00:07:21,775 --> 00:07:24,277 when you came out of the closet. 93 00:07:24,277 --> 00:07:28,156 But I do not understand how parents 94 00:07:28,156 --> 00:07:32,410 can kick a child out of their home 95 00:07:32,410 --> 00:07:38,416 when they find out that they're homosexual or... 96 00:07:38,416 --> 00:07:42,837 - It's just unbelievable. - It happens every day. 97 00:07:42,837 --> 00:07:46,508 ♪♪ 98 00:07:46,508 --> 00:07:49,511 I grew up in farm community in Utah. 99 00:07:49,511 --> 00:07:50,970 All my friends I was associated with 100 00:07:50,970 --> 00:07:53,973 were all, of course, with the Mormon Church. 101 00:07:53,973 --> 00:07:56,059 You could make one statement or have one thought, 102 00:07:56,059 --> 00:07:58,144 and a friend would say, "Hey, you can't think like that. 103 00:07:58,144 --> 00:08:00,105 Don't do that. You'll go to hell. 104 00:08:00,105 --> 00:08:01,648 You're gonna make God mad at you." 105 00:08:01,648 --> 00:08:02,816 Crazy stuff. 106 00:08:05,402 --> 00:08:07,570 My best friend... 107 00:08:07,570 --> 00:08:10,448 The guys would go to his house to look at his dad's Playboy. 108 00:08:10,448 --> 00:08:12,450 Well, I wasn't interested in it, 109 00:08:12,450 --> 00:08:14,744 so my job was to stand out front 110 00:08:14,744 --> 00:08:16,788 and watch for his mom to come home 111 00:08:16,788 --> 00:08:19,040 and ring the doorbell. 112 00:08:21,084 --> 00:08:23,253 I wasn't interested. 113 00:08:23,253 --> 00:08:25,255 That's when I knew. 114 00:08:26,715 --> 00:08:28,466 I moved to San Francisco in the early '80s 115 00:08:28,466 --> 00:08:30,552 when AIDS was at its peak. 116 00:08:30,552 --> 00:08:32,554 The response I was getting from people here, 117 00:08:32,554 --> 00:08:36,516 "Why are you going there? You'll get AIDS." 118 00:08:36,516 --> 00:08:38,727 I never had any real relationships there. 119 00:08:38,727 --> 00:08:41,646 I was willing to be risky about going out, 120 00:08:41,646 --> 00:08:43,690 going to bars and trying to pick up tricks 121 00:08:43,690 --> 00:08:47,318 and meet strangers and that kinda stuff. 122 00:08:47,318 --> 00:08:50,113 That was okay. That kinda risky behavior's fine 123 00:08:50,113 --> 00:08:51,865 'cause that's part of being gay. 124 00:08:51,865 --> 00:08:55,076 It was a lot easier to try to pick up a trick 125 00:08:55,076 --> 00:08:57,245 and not have to become emotionally involved 126 00:08:57,245 --> 00:08:59,748 or connected to anybody. 127 00:08:59,748 --> 00:09:01,791 It was also part of fighting AIDS. 128 00:09:01,791 --> 00:09:04,627 Screw AIDS. I'm gonna go out and have sex 129 00:09:04,627 --> 00:09:06,713 whether you like it or not. 130 00:09:06,713 --> 00:09:09,924 It was part of the militant thing that we all went through. 131 00:09:12,302 --> 00:09:15,430 For some stupid reason, I thought I had to get tested, 132 00:09:15,430 --> 00:09:19,642 see what my HIV status is, and I did. 133 00:09:19,642 --> 00:09:22,771 And I was positive, and I did not expect that. 134 00:09:22,771 --> 00:09:24,439 I did not know that. 135 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:29,277 Watched people die in San Francisco. 136 00:09:29,277 --> 00:09:31,571 I watched ACT UP. I watched. 137 00:09:31,571 --> 00:09:33,782 I just stood off at the sidelines though. 138 00:09:33,782 --> 00:09:36,242 I didn't do anything. I just watched. 139 00:09:36,242 --> 00:09:38,745 I would look at that and go, "Why can't I do that? 140 00:09:38,745 --> 00:09:41,039 Why am I not out there marching with them?" 141 00:09:41,039 --> 00:09:42,916 Those people have got a lot of guts, 142 00:09:42,916 --> 00:09:47,629 and they have a lot of courage, and maybe I was afraid. 143 00:09:47,629 --> 00:09:50,089 But it would've given me a hell of a lot more meaning 144 00:09:50,089 --> 00:09:52,091 if I had known I could be down there 145 00:09:52,091 --> 00:09:55,428 marching with those people and sticking with them, 146 00:09:55,428 --> 00:09:59,015 instead of reading about it in the paper. 147 00:10:23,998 --> 00:10:27,293 Utah's political landscape is somewhat unique 148 00:10:27,293 --> 00:10:31,297 in that one denomination dominates the culture. 149 00:10:31,297 --> 00:10:33,842 Based on what you have seen and experienced, 150 00:10:33,842 --> 00:10:37,095 is Utah a democracy or a theocracy? 151 00:10:37,095 --> 00:10:38,638 Clearly a democracy. 152 00:10:38,638 --> 00:10:40,849 We're nowhere close to being a theocracy. 153 00:10:40,849 --> 00:10:43,601 But I do have issues with how the Mormon Church 154 00:10:43,601 --> 00:10:45,603 lobbies the legislature. 155 00:10:45,603 --> 00:10:47,063 All of Republican leadership, 156 00:10:47,063 --> 00:10:49,566 almost all our members of the Mormon Church 157 00:10:49,566 --> 00:10:52,360 they are able to whisper into the ears 158 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,572 of a few members of Republican leadership. 159 00:10:55,572 --> 00:10:58,575 Then bills magically go through without objection, 160 00:10:58,575 --> 00:11:00,618 or they magically die, 161 00:11:00,618 --> 00:11:03,496 and there's not a lot of talk about it. 162 00:11:03,496 --> 00:11:05,874 Really, to appreciate the significance 163 00:11:05,874 --> 00:11:09,586 of overturning a same-sex marriage ban in Utah, 164 00:11:09,586 --> 00:11:13,006 you have to understand that Mormon history, 165 00:11:13,006 --> 00:11:16,176 doctrine, and culture permeate every aspect 166 00:11:16,176 --> 00:11:19,762 of public policy and public opinion. 167 00:11:19,762 --> 00:11:25,101 One way we can see that is in the twice-yearly conferences 168 00:11:25,101 --> 00:11:27,729 that the Church holds in Salt Lake City. 169 00:11:27,729 --> 00:11:30,440 Those draw tens of thousands of Latter-day Saints 170 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:32,692 who come to hear words of wisdom 171 00:11:32,692 --> 00:11:35,653 and direction from their church leaders. 172 00:11:35,653 --> 00:11:40,158 We believe the organization and government of heaven 173 00:11:40,158 --> 00:11:43,995 will be built around families and extended families. 174 00:11:43,995 --> 00:11:46,039 It is because of our beliefs 175 00:11:46,039 --> 00:11:48,750 that marriage and families are eternal, 176 00:11:48,750 --> 00:11:52,754 that we, as a Church, want to be leaders 177 00:11:52,754 --> 00:11:56,841 and participate in worldwide movements that strengthen them. 178 00:11:56,841 --> 00:11:59,218 We want to help these people to strengthen them, 179 00:11:59,218 --> 00:12:01,596 to assist them with their problems 180 00:12:01,596 --> 00:12:04,432 and to help them with their difficulties. 181 00:12:04,432 --> 00:12:06,434 But we cannot stand idle 182 00:12:06,434 --> 00:12:09,354 if they indulge in immoral activity, 183 00:12:09,354 --> 00:12:12,982 if they try to uphold and defend and live 184 00:12:12,982 --> 00:12:16,486 in a so-called same-sex marriage situation. 185 00:12:16,486 --> 00:12:21,699 We also need politicians, policymakers, and officials 186 00:12:21,699 --> 00:12:25,828 to increase their attention to what is best for children, 187 00:12:25,828 --> 00:12:29,791 in contrast to the selfish interest of voters 188 00:12:29,791 --> 00:12:32,752 and vocal advocates of adult interests. 189 00:12:35,630 --> 00:12:37,632 Mormonism is very different from Protestantism, 190 00:12:37,632 --> 00:12:40,593 and part of that has to do with the role of leaders. 191 00:12:40,593 --> 00:12:43,429 What makes the difference is the way the leaders, or oracles, 192 00:12:43,429 --> 00:12:45,473 leaders of the voice of God or the divine... 193 00:12:47,225 --> 00:12:50,478 It's tough to understand the Church's motivations, 194 00:12:50,478 --> 00:12:54,107 unless you've been Mormon or maybe Scientologist, 195 00:12:54,107 --> 00:12:57,527 one of these all-consuming, all-in religions. 196 00:12:57,527 --> 00:13:00,613 There is no part of the country where 70% 197 00:13:00,613 --> 00:13:03,783 or 67% of the population belongs to a single faith, 198 00:13:03,783 --> 00:13:05,410 so the Church is a big employer. 199 00:13:05,410 --> 00:13:07,286 It also owns property. 200 00:13:07,286 --> 00:13:11,290 It may be the largest single landowner in the area. 201 00:13:11,290 --> 00:13:14,002 Everybody here talks about religion all the time. 202 00:13:14,002 --> 00:13:16,504 That means they talk about the Church, 203 00:13:16,504 --> 00:13:18,339 and there's no doubt about which Church it is. 204 00:13:19,924 --> 00:13:22,176 Nothing's about to happen at the Capital 205 00:13:22,176 --> 00:13:24,887 that the Church doesn't 100% endorse. 206 00:13:24,887 --> 00:13:28,766 It absolutely will get its way on LGBT issues, 207 00:13:28,766 --> 00:13:30,351 on marriage issues. 208 00:13:30,351 --> 00:13:32,270 Equal rights! 209 00:13:32,270 --> 00:13:35,189 From a PR perspective, it's been a tough couple years 210 00:13:35,189 --> 00:13:37,900 for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 211 00:13:37,900 --> 00:13:39,861 Recently, there have been angry protests 212 00:13:39,861 --> 00:13:41,446 outside Mormon temples 213 00:13:41,446 --> 00:13:43,865 over the Church's support of Proposition 8. 214 00:13:43,865 --> 00:13:45,533 Yours a Church that has experienced 215 00:13:45,533 --> 00:13:48,745 extraordinary persecution and discrimination. 216 00:13:48,745 --> 00:13:52,582 Children killed, homes burned, women raped, 217 00:13:52,582 --> 00:13:56,252 entire populations pushed across the Great Plains. 218 00:13:56,252 --> 00:13:58,004 Why would you want to tell another group of people 219 00:13:58,004 --> 00:14:00,214 what they can't do by law? 220 00:14:00,214 --> 00:14:03,468 We were for marriage between a man and a woman. 221 00:14:03,468 --> 00:14:04,969 But gays and lesbians are saying, 222 00:14:04,969 --> 00:14:07,472 "We, too, are a persecuted group. 223 00:14:07,472 --> 00:14:10,224 We, too, deserve our rights under the law." 224 00:14:10,224 --> 00:14:11,976 But what I'm saying, 225 00:14:11,976 --> 00:14:16,314 this isn't because it's directed at another group. 226 00:14:16,314 --> 00:14:17,565 It's for the protection 227 00:14:17,565 --> 00:14:20,276 of a 5,000-year history of marriage 228 00:14:20,276 --> 00:14:22,028 being between a man and a woman. 229 00:14:22,028 --> 00:14:25,740 One of the doctrines, which is unique in Mormonism, 230 00:14:25,740 --> 00:14:28,493 is that marriage is for eternity. 231 00:14:28,493 --> 00:14:30,578 That is one of the most satisfying 232 00:14:30,578 --> 00:14:33,664 and, we think, beautiful doctrines. 233 00:14:33,664 --> 00:14:36,417 Before you even had a sense of your identity 234 00:14:36,417 --> 00:14:38,002 or your attraction, 235 00:14:38,002 --> 00:14:40,838 you were taught-- find a mate and have a family. 236 00:14:40,838 --> 00:14:42,882 That is what God wants. 237 00:14:42,882 --> 00:14:45,968 If I'm gay, and I'm not gonna get married, 238 00:14:45,968 --> 00:14:48,638 then I'm a threat to the eternal family, 239 00:14:48,638 --> 00:14:52,475 not only for me, but my parents think 240 00:14:52,475 --> 00:14:55,853 I'm not gonna be part of their eternal family. 241 00:14:55,853 --> 00:14:58,356 Inside sacred buildings called "temples," 242 00:14:58,356 --> 00:15:01,567 couples can be married not just until death do you part, 243 00:15:01,567 --> 00:15:03,027 but for eternity, 244 00:15:03,027 --> 00:15:04,821 so families can be together forever, 245 00:15:04,821 --> 00:15:06,614 even after death. 246 00:15:06,614 --> 00:15:09,367 Who made this possible? God did. 247 00:15:09,367 --> 00:15:11,953 Why? God isn't just our creator. 248 00:15:11,953 --> 00:15:15,832 He's our father. We are his children, his family. 249 00:15:15,832 --> 00:15:19,043 That's the big picture, and we're all part of it. 250 00:15:37,186 --> 00:15:40,982 It was around 2010 that I was diagnosed with cancer, 251 00:15:40,982 --> 00:15:42,692 with lung cancer. 252 00:15:42,692 --> 00:15:45,027 I went into chemotherapy 253 00:15:45,027 --> 00:15:48,239 and just took a couple years off of my life, 254 00:15:48,239 --> 00:15:49,866 and I came out of it different. 255 00:15:49,866 --> 00:15:52,702 Felt like I've got this second chance now. 256 00:15:52,702 --> 00:15:55,246 Let's do something. 257 00:15:55,246 --> 00:15:58,291 I have a pile of regrets like this, 258 00:15:58,291 --> 00:16:02,461 and some of the things I wish I had done, I didn't. 259 00:16:03,671 --> 00:16:05,089 So the lawsuit actually started 260 00:16:05,089 --> 00:16:07,925 from a discussion group on Facebook. 261 00:16:07,925 --> 00:16:10,761 I said, "I am putting together a federal lawsuit 262 00:16:10,761 --> 00:16:13,514 to overturn Utah's ban on gay marriage." 263 00:16:13,514 --> 00:16:15,349 Then we started meeting in coffee shops 264 00:16:15,349 --> 00:16:17,351 and started talking about it. 265 00:16:17,351 --> 00:16:20,730 I contacted Mark on the comment board and said, 266 00:16:20,730 --> 00:16:22,690 "I'm interested. When, where?" 267 00:16:22,690 --> 00:16:24,901 We thought it was crazy, 268 00:16:24,901 --> 00:16:26,819 and there was no way in hell it would happen, 269 00:16:26,819 --> 00:16:29,030 except we were going to try. 270 00:16:29,030 --> 00:16:31,032 None of us had PR experience. 271 00:16:31,032 --> 00:16:34,827 None of us had experience in legislation, 272 00:16:34,827 --> 00:16:38,789 in fundraising, certainly. 273 00:16:38,789 --> 00:16:41,250 We just had will. 274 00:16:41,250 --> 00:16:44,754 And I started contacting community leaders saying, 275 00:16:44,754 --> 00:16:46,631 "Let's do this." 276 00:16:46,631 --> 00:16:48,424 They couldn't get onboard with it, 277 00:16:48,424 --> 00:16:50,218 and that really, really pissed me off. 278 00:16:50,218 --> 00:16:52,261 I went to the ACLU and they said, 279 00:16:52,261 --> 00:16:53,971 "You can't possibly be serious." 280 00:16:53,971 --> 00:16:56,015 It was almost like he was going door-to-door 281 00:16:56,015 --> 00:16:57,975 trying to find someone. 282 00:16:57,975 --> 00:17:01,604 I think I sent out a whole bunch of emails one day, 283 00:17:01,604 --> 00:17:04,899 and Magleby & Greenwood, Jim Magleby responded. 284 00:17:09,445 --> 00:17:14,492 "Friday, February 8th, 2013, 3:55 p.m., from Mark Lawrence. 285 00:17:14,492 --> 00:17:17,245 I represent an organization that is working 286 00:17:17,245 --> 00:17:19,830 to challenge Utah's Amendment 3 in federal court. 287 00:17:19,830 --> 00:17:21,457 We are now seeking a legal team. 288 00:17:21,457 --> 00:17:23,793 Is this something that you would be interested in?" 289 00:17:23,793 --> 00:17:28,047 And we responded, "Mr. Lawrence, I would be very interested 290 00:17:28,047 --> 00:17:29,090 in our firm representing your group, 291 00:17:29,090 --> 00:17:31,008 but cannot work pro bono. 292 00:17:31,008 --> 00:17:33,511 If you'd like to meet with me and my partner Peggy Thompson, 293 00:17:33,511 --> 00:17:35,554 please let us know." 294 00:17:35,554 --> 00:17:36,597 That was the beginning. 295 00:17:39,517 --> 00:17:42,728 I really had respect for him 296 00:17:42,728 --> 00:17:47,066 for being someone who is not involved in any organization 297 00:17:47,066 --> 00:17:49,735 nationally or locally, that had any power, 298 00:17:49,735 --> 00:17:53,990 and had just decided on his own he was gonna do this. 299 00:17:53,990 --> 00:17:56,409 I thought, "You know what? That takes a lotta chutzpah." 300 00:17:56,409 --> 00:17:59,537 And he said, "I'm looking for lawyers 301 00:17:59,537 --> 00:18:03,874 who can handle a really nasty fight with the state of Utah." 302 00:18:03,874 --> 00:18:06,085 Then Jim, because he owns the firm, 303 00:18:06,085 --> 00:18:08,254 and it's an economic decision, 304 00:18:08,254 --> 00:18:11,299 asked the right question: "Who's gonna pay for this?" 305 00:18:11,299 --> 00:18:12,883 You'd never guess it by looking at him, 306 00:18:12,883 --> 00:18:14,844 but he is an eternal optimist, 307 00:18:14,844 --> 00:18:18,347 and he said, "We'll get the gay community in Utah. 308 00:18:18,347 --> 00:18:21,058 We'll even get donations nationwide 309 00:18:21,058 --> 00:18:23,436 because we're going to do this." 310 00:18:23,436 --> 00:18:25,938 "Oh, don't worry. I can raise--" 311 00:18:25,938 --> 00:18:29,650 We estimated it'd be around a million dollars to do this. 312 00:18:29,650 --> 00:18:33,487 He said, "Oh, I can raise this. There is no issue." 313 00:18:33,487 --> 00:18:35,698 I'm thinking in my mind, "This guy has no connections 314 00:18:35,698 --> 00:18:37,366 with anybody on Earth. 315 00:18:37,366 --> 00:18:39,493 There is no way this guy's gonna raise any money." 316 00:18:39,493 --> 00:18:41,412 And I think, "Do I care?" 317 00:18:41,412 --> 00:18:44,290 I think no, I don't care because it's the right thing to do. 318 00:18:44,290 --> 00:18:48,419 So I go, "Yeah, I'm sure that that can happen." 319 00:18:48,419 --> 00:18:50,421 So we decided to take it on. 320 00:18:58,554 --> 00:19:00,723 ♪ Happy birthday to you ♪ 321 00:19:00,723 --> 00:19:04,226 ♪ Happy birthday, dear Marcelino ♪ 322 00:19:04,226 --> 00:19:06,687 ♪ Happy birthday to you ♪ 323 00:19:06,687 --> 00:19:08,606 ♪ And many more ♪ 324 00:19:08,606 --> 00:19:09,774 Here's your seat. 325 00:19:09,774 --> 00:19:12,610 So you're 13! 326 00:19:12,610 --> 00:19:14,445 Yay! 327 00:19:17,948 --> 00:19:20,451 I didn't really come out to my parents. 328 00:19:20,451 --> 00:19:24,205 Someone outted me to my mother, and she called me. 329 00:19:24,205 --> 00:19:27,583 Told me I was not allowed to bring any girlfriends home. 330 00:19:27,583 --> 00:19:29,794 And I said, "Well, I'm sorry to hear that 331 00:19:29,794 --> 00:19:32,088 because you aren't gonna be seeing me." 332 00:19:32,088 --> 00:19:37,510 It was really a very dangerous time for lesbians and gay men. 333 00:19:37,510 --> 00:19:38,969 You got beat up. 334 00:19:38,969 --> 00:19:41,806 You got your car windows broken out. 335 00:19:41,806 --> 00:19:43,808 Joe Redburn, who owned The Sun, 336 00:19:43,808 --> 00:19:47,478 hired security to walk people from the bar to your car, 337 00:19:47,478 --> 00:19:51,482 but still, people would go by and grab people off the street. 338 00:19:53,943 --> 00:19:58,656 I met her at a dinner at her house. 339 00:19:58,656 --> 00:20:01,242 We were out on the patio, and a baby bird flew out of the tree 340 00:20:01,242 --> 00:20:02,660 and landed on my shoulder 341 00:20:02,660 --> 00:20:04,995 and starting eating food off my plate, 342 00:20:04,995 --> 00:20:06,497 and she came over, 343 00:20:06,497 --> 00:20:09,166 and we played with this baby bird and fed it 344 00:20:09,166 --> 00:20:13,129 and just started talking to each other. 345 00:20:13,129 --> 00:20:16,924 In all candor, I was an asshole at that point in my life. 346 00:20:16,924 --> 00:20:19,385 I was making a lot of money. 347 00:20:19,385 --> 00:20:21,971 I had no obligations, 348 00:20:21,971 --> 00:20:25,683 and I drove a 911 Porsche Cabriolet. 349 00:20:25,683 --> 00:20:29,145 I thought I was the coolest thing walking, 350 00:20:29,145 --> 00:20:33,566 but I was dispelled of it very quickly after I met Cindy. 351 00:20:36,026 --> 00:20:38,654 I had to work on a project over the weekend, 352 00:20:38,654 --> 00:20:42,241 and I had asked the senior lawyer's secretary to come in. 353 00:20:42,241 --> 00:20:45,286 She is Marcelino's grandmother. 354 00:20:45,286 --> 00:20:46,495 I had never met him. 355 00:20:46,495 --> 00:20:48,330 He just turned three years old. 356 00:20:48,330 --> 00:20:50,666 And I got out these little books, 357 00:20:50,666 --> 00:20:53,961 and I read them to him, and he was just laughing. 358 00:20:53,961 --> 00:20:57,131 About two weeks later, he came in with his mother, 359 00:20:57,131 --> 00:20:58,841 kind of beat up, 360 00:20:58,841 --> 00:21:02,136 and he saw me in the hall, and he grabbed me and said, 361 00:21:02,136 --> 00:21:03,804 "Please take me home with you." 362 00:21:03,804 --> 00:21:06,599 One day in the middle of the day, 363 00:21:06,599 --> 00:21:09,268 I got a call from Marcelino's great grandmother. 364 00:21:09,268 --> 00:21:14,356 She said, "Peggy, I am too old to be raising this child. 365 00:21:14,356 --> 00:21:15,733 Can you he come live with you?" 366 00:21:15,733 --> 00:21:17,109 We said of course. 367 00:21:18,903 --> 00:21:21,238 Like with all my cases, 368 00:21:21,238 --> 00:21:24,950 I believe in my clients, and I want to win. 369 00:21:24,950 --> 00:21:27,161 But in this particular case, 370 00:21:27,161 --> 00:21:29,205 it's very personal to me 371 00:21:29,205 --> 00:21:32,583 because if I could accomplish this, 372 00:21:32,583 --> 00:21:35,002 I could ask Cindy to marry me, 373 00:21:35,002 --> 00:21:39,006 and I'd be able to adopt Marcelino. 374 00:21:39,006 --> 00:21:42,218 Only Cindy had been able to adopt him. 375 00:21:42,218 --> 00:21:46,138 I've been his mom since he first asked me to take him home. 376 00:21:46,138 --> 00:21:48,390 If something happens to Cindy, 377 00:21:48,390 --> 00:21:52,228 I would have no rights. None. 378 00:21:52,228 --> 00:21:58,859 So I personally believe in this to the bottom of my heart. 379 00:22:22,967 --> 00:22:24,343 Joseph? 380 00:22:27,346 --> 00:22:29,139 Joseph. 381 00:22:30,558 --> 00:22:34,353 This is my beloved son. 382 00:22:34,353 --> 00:22:36,063 Hear him. 383 00:22:37,898 --> 00:22:42,278 Joseph, thy sins are forgiven thee. 384 00:22:42,278 --> 00:22:44,154 Behold. 385 00:22:44,154 --> 00:22:47,157 I am the Lord of Glory. 386 00:22:47,157 --> 00:22:50,744 At a future time, the complete truth of the Gospel 387 00:22:50,744 --> 00:22:53,581 will be revealed to you. 388 00:23:00,754 --> 00:23:04,091 After this vision, Joseph Smith founds the Mormon Church 389 00:23:04,091 --> 00:23:07,553 in an upstate New York farming community in 1830. 390 00:23:09,221 --> 00:23:12,349 And by all accounts, he is charismatic, 391 00:23:12,349 --> 00:23:17,688 and he quickly develops a small, but loyal following. 392 00:23:17,688 --> 00:23:20,274 What he sees is that his Church 393 00:23:20,274 --> 00:23:23,152 and the Church he believes that Jesus Christ founded 394 00:23:23,152 --> 00:23:27,823 is one and the same, and it had been lost. 395 00:23:27,823 --> 00:23:30,909 But not only that, he even saw Jesus' project 396 00:23:30,909 --> 00:23:33,662 in some ways was not really fulfilled. 397 00:23:36,081 --> 00:23:39,668 And what he was doing was bringing back together 398 00:23:39,668 --> 00:23:42,087 all of the things that had been lost. 399 00:23:44,089 --> 00:23:47,468 And that included polygamy as a restoration 400 00:23:47,468 --> 00:23:50,137 of an ancient practice that had been lost 401 00:23:50,137 --> 00:23:53,766 and that was a key feature of what the heavens looked like. 402 00:23:56,685 --> 00:23:59,438 This becomes a very secret practice by Smith 403 00:23:59,438 --> 00:24:03,192 and some high-ranking men in the Church. 404 00:24:03,192 --> 00:24:05,277 Whispers about plural marriage 405 00:24:05,277 --> 00:24:07,404 and, in some cases, underage brides 406 00:24:07,404 --> 00:24:10,616 begins to leak out into the society. 407 00:24:10,616 --> 00:24:14,912 And this becomes a boiling point for Smith. 408 00:24:14,912 --> 00:24:17,331 As the rumors started to spread, 409 00:24:17,331 --> 00:24:19,917 he was framed as sex-crazed, 410 00:24:19,917 --> 00:24:23,420 rather than been seen in the light he wanted to see himself, 411 00:24:23,420 --> 00:24:27,716 as a prophet restoring a divine institution. 412 00:24:31,178 --> 00:24:33,347 So as the Church grows, 413 00:24:33,347 --> 00:24:36,183 so does the discomfort that outsiders are having 414 00:24:36,183 --> 00:24:37,935 with Mormon teachings. 415 00:24:37,935 --> 00:24:39,478 There were conflicts between 416 00:24:39,478 --> 00:24:41,855 these different communities. 417 00:24:41,855 --> 00:24:45,567 And Governor Boggs of Missouri 418 00:24:45,567 --> 00:24:48,278 declared an extermination order on Mormons. 419 00:24:52,074 --> 00:24:54,743 They appealed to the federal government for help, 420 00:24:54,743 --> 00:24:58,330 who was not willing to rescue them. 421 00:24:58,330 --> 00:25:02,292 Joseph Smith was taken to a jail. 422 00:25:02,292 --> 00:25:05,462 A mob assembled outside. 423 00:25:05,462 --> 00:25:07,756 They overpowered those who were inside 424 00:25:07,756 --> 00:25:10,467 and killed Joseph and his brother. 425 00:25:14,304 --> 00:25:18,350 This forces them to move west, hoping they can find a place 426 00:25:18,350 --> 00:25:20,728 where they will be outside the reach of government. 427 00:25:24,565 --> 00:25:26,817 They end up in the Utah territory, 428 00:25:26,817 --> 00:25:29,862 which is just outside the boundaries of the United States. 429 00:25:31,905 --> 00:25:33,699 Zion, they would call it, 430 00:25:33,699 --> 00:25:36,785 where they can have the Church be the center of their life. 431 00:25:36,785 --> 00:25:39,830 It's a theocracy, not a democracy. 432 00:25:41,999 --> 00:25:44,334 They were defenders of religious freedom, 433 00:25:44,334 --> 00:25:47,129 and they lost this battle against the federal government. 434 00:25:47,129 --> 00:25:49,339 They took it all the way to the Supreme Court, 435 00:25:49,339 --> 00:25:50,632 and the Supreme Court said, 436 00:25:50,632 --> 00:25:52,593 "You do not have the religious freedom 437 00:25:52,593 --> 00:25:57,139 to practice your religion as you believe it." 438 00:25:57,139 --> 00:25:59,808 The federal government is not gonna allow Utah 439 00:25:59,808 --> 00:26:03,437 to join the Union if they insist on keeping religion 440 00:26:03,437 --> 00:26:06,440 at the center of public life and practicing polygamy. 441 00:26:11,487 --> 00:26:15,282 Mormons decided they could no longer sustain 442 00:26:15,282 --> 00:26:17,284 their practices of polygamy 443 00:26:17,284 --> 00:26:21,455 without endless conflict with the federal government. 444 00:26:23,290 --> 00:26:25,292 It finally came time 445 00:26:25,292 --> 00:26:27,669 to make this decision about statehood. 446 00:26:27,669 --> 00:26:31,757 Polygamy, as deeply ingrained as it was in Mormon culture, 447 00:26:31,757 --> 00:26:35,260 was worth sacrificing to gain statehood. 448 00:26:36,970 --> 00:26:38,430 That moment had a powerful impact 449 00:26:38,430 --> 00:26:40,307 for future generations of Mormons 450 00:26:40,307 --> 00:26:42,810 who believed that they could at anytime 451 00:26:42,810 --> 00:26:44,561 be persecuted to such a degree 452 00:26:44,561 --> 00:26:46,647 that they would have to flee and fear for their lives. 453 00:26:49,316 --> 00:26:51,860 There is a huge persecution complex. 454 00:26:51,860 --> 00:26:53,779 You could say it comes from the government, 455 00:26:53,779 --> 00:26:58,116 forcing the Church to change practices on polygamy. 456 00:26:58,116 --> 00:27:03,580 But I think it comes down to a doctrine of good and evil. 457 00:27:03,580 --> 00:27:07,000 The more the Church is being persecuted and criticized, 458 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:08,210 the truer it is. 459 00:27:43,745 --> 00:27:45,956 You've tried all of our products before, right? 460 00:27:45,956 --> 00:27:47,958 Yeah. 461 00:27:47,958 --> 00:27:50,168 I thought so. 462 00:27:50,168 --> 00:27:52,880 And our last one is a garlic spread. 463 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,048 A tablespoon is about five cloves. 464 00:27:55,048 --> 00:27:57,426 We use this the same way a condiment is used 465 00:27:57,426 --> 00:27:58,802 on a burger or a sandwich. 466 00:28:04,933 --> 00:28:06,476 - Having fun? - Yeah. 467 00:28:06,476 --> 00:28:07,811 I was in a meeting. 468 00:28:07,811 --> 00:28:09,605 That's where I met Derek and Moudi. 469 00:28:09,605 --> 00:28:11,899 I said, "I am putting together a federal lawsuit 470 00:28:11,899 --> 00:28:14,109 to overturn Utah's ban on gay marriage. 471 00:28:14,109 --> 00:28:15,736 We need some plaintiffs." 472 00:28:15,736 --> 00:28:17,696 At first, they didn't take me seriously. 473 00:28:17,696 --> 00:28:19,197 Moudi's response was, "No. 474 00:28:19,197 --> 00:28:21,950 I don't think we can do do something like that." 475 00:28:21,950 --> 00:28:24,411 It was this man who was really determined, 476 00:28:24,411 --> 00:28:28,248 and it was almost off-putting to me at first. 477 00:28:28,248 --> 00:28:30,042 I said, "Why don't you think about it? 478 00:28:30,042 --> 00:28:31,460 Just give it some thought." 479 00:28:31,460 --> 00:28:34,588 Pfft! Utah? Yeah, right. Good luck with that. 480 00:28:34,588 --> 00:28:36,673 So I started following up with them. 481 00:28:36,673 --> 00:28:38,425 I would talk to them a little bit more. 482 00:28:38,425 --> 00:28:41,094 Even though I wanted to be married, 483 00:28:41,094 --> 00:28:43,221 I didn't take him seriously 484 00:28:43,221 --> 00:28:48,185 or the idea of bringing marriage equality seriously to Utah. 485 00:28:48,185 --> 00:28:50,979 About three months after we met him the first time, 486 00:28:50,979 --> 00:28:53,690 he gave me a call, and he said, 487 00:28:53,690 --> 00:28:55,275 "I have a couple of attorneys. 488 00:28:55,275 --> 00:28:56,693 Would you and Moudi like to meet?" 489 00:28:56,693 --> 00:28:58,820 It legitimized the concept to me 490 00:28:58,820 --> 00:29:01,281 in a way that he was never capable of doing. 491 00:29:01,281 --> 00:29:04,242 Because it is then that I felt comfortable, actually. 492 00:29:04,242 --> 00:29:09,206 I felt as if I would have two people 493 00:29:09,206 --> 00:29:11,667 that understand what they're doing. 494 00:29:11,667 --> 00:29:16,964 And we realized that this would become... 495 00:29:16,964 --> 00:29:20,509 a case centered on us and our story. 496 00:29:20,509 --> 00:29:23,971 It really relied on our own desire to marry. 497 00:29:23,971 --> 00:29:27,265 I have to this, but it wasn't Mark that was involved. 498 00:29:27,265 --> 00:29:29,267 It wasn't a story about Mark, 499 00:29:29,267 --> 00:29:32,104 which is not a story I was willing to buy into originally. 500 00:29:32,104 --> 00:29:37,943 There was not this kink in the chain, if you will. 501 00:29:37,943 --> 00:29:41,071 They were perfect 'cause they've been together for years. 502 00:29:41,071 --> 00:29:45,117 They owned a business together, and they had so much at stake. 503 00:29:45,117 --> 00:29:47,911 I just liked 'em. I thought they were great guys. 504 00:29:47,911 --> 00:29:50,038 They were pretty. 505 00:29:50,038 --> 00:29:52,457 Put 'em out there in the press. 506 00:29:52,457 --> 00:29:56,128 They were both very, very smart, very well-spoken. 507 00:29:56,128 --> 00:29:59,423 We came to the conclusion that it was the right thing to do, 508 00:29:59,423 --> 00:30:02,050 and we were the right people to do it. 509 00:30:02,050 --> 00:30:05,220 If it's not gonna be us, then who else would do it? 510 00:30:05,220 --> 00:30:08,015 They came back, and we talked. They both said, "You know what? 511 00:30:08,015 --> 00:30:10,183 We'll take the consequences." 512 00:30:10,183 --> 00:30:14,271 And then Derek said, "I want my name to be the name." 513 00:30:14,271 --> 00:30:17,983 I think I signed on as the bride at that time. 514 00:30:21,111 --> 00:30:23,113 We're just English teacher geeks. 515 00:30:23,113 --> 00:30:25,365 Sometimes we're little old ladies. 516 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:28,577 My dear friend. 517 00:30:28,577 --> 00:30:29,995 We were sitting and talking about her day, 518 00:30:29,995 --> 00:30:33,165 and she said, "Do you, really?" 519 00:30:33,165 --> 00:30:37,044 "Would you consider joining in the case and suing the state 520 00:30:37,044 --> 00:30:39,755 to overturn Amendment 3?" 521 00:30:39,755 --> 00:30:43,884 And I said, "I don't know. I'll check on that." 522 00:30:45,343 --> 00:30:47,888 Yes, we have to do this. I think this is great. 523 00:30:47,888 --> 00:30:49,431 I'm glad someone thought of it. 524 00:30:49,431 --> 00:30:51,308 Let's be a part of it. 525 00:30:51,308 --> 00:30:52,976 We wanted another couple, 526 00:30:52,976 --> 00:30:55,812 and Kody and Laurie came in and talked to us. 527 00:30:55,812 --> 00:30:59,024 I just went, "Wow, this is it. This is our group." 528 00:30:59,024 --> 00:31:01,860 I think I always wanted to make a difference, 529 00:31:01,860 --> 00:31:05,530 but I used to joke that I liked living in Utah 530 00:31:05,530 --> 00:31:08,617 because I could be a radical and not leave the sofa. 531 00:31:08,617 --> 00:31:13,580 She walked me to work that Monday and texted me 532 00:31:13,580 --> 00:31:17,667 and said, "Do you wanna be the bride or the groom?" 533 00:31:20,003 --> 00:31:21,546 I said, "The bride, of course." 534 00:31:23,131 --> 00:31:25,884 Ohh! 535 00:31:43,819 --> 00:31:47,280 There was a major transition that happens after World War II. 536 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,951 Mormons start to think about same-sex sexual acts 537 00:31:50,951 --> 00:31:53,870 as a psychological condition. 538 00:31:53,870 --> 00:31:56,623 A new kind of person is emerging. 539 00:31:56,623 --> 00:32:01,753 Homosexuality is, in fact, a mental illness, 540 00:32:01,753 --> 00:32:04,256 which has reached epidemiological proportions. 541 00:32:06,383 --> 00:32:08,885 The minister quoted is reported to have said, 542 00:32:08,885 --> 00:32:12,889 "Two people of the same sex can express love 543 00:32:12,889 --> 00:32:16,685 and deepen that love by sexual intercourse." 544 00:32:16,685 --> 00:32:19,146 Those are ugly voices. 545 00:32:19,146 --> 00:32:21,565 They are loud and raspy. 546 00:32:21,565 --> 00:32:23,650 To the great Moses, these perversions 547 00:32:23,650 --> 00:32:26,862 were an abomination and a defilement 548 00:32:26,862 --> 00:32:28,947 worthy of death. 549 00:32:28,947 --> 00:32:32,367 The idea that someone is gay 550 00:32:32,367 --> 00:32:36,538 is an idea that Elder Kimball strongly rejected. 551 00:32:36,538 --> 00:32:40,041 He believed that homosexuals who were telling this story 552 00:32:40,041 --> 00:32:42,502 were perpetuating a satanic lie, 553 00:32:42,502 --> 00:32:44,087 and he's trying to teach people 554 00:32:44,087 --> 00:32:48,049 to train their minds through a set of practices, 555 00:32:48,049 --> 00:32:51,678 like singing hymns, exercising. 556 00:32:51,678 --> 00:32:54,764 So his program of self-mastery 557 00:32:54,764 --> 00:32:58,810 is the cure to same-sex desires. 558 00:33:05,317 --> 00:33:07,402 That's like playing in the rapids. 559 00:33:07,402 --> 00:33:10,113 When you're in the whitewater, things can happen fast. 560 00:33:26,004 --> 00:33:31,051 ♪ So he sent me on my journey down the river ♪ 561 00:33:31,051 --> 00:33:35,972 ♪ And he said he would always climb on me ♪ 562 00:33:35,972 --> 00:33:38,725 ♪ He taught me the joy ♪ 563 00:33:38,725 --> 00:33:40,727 There is a falsehood that some are born 564 00:33:40,727 --> 00:33:42,812 with an attraction to their own kind, 565 00:33:42,812 --> 00:33:44,648 and that they can do nothing about it. 566 00:33:44,648 --> 00:33:46,650 They are just that way. 567 00:33:46,650 --> 00:33:49,110 And that is... 568 00:33:49,110 --> 00:33:53,281 That is a malicious, destructive lie. 569 00:33:53,281 --> 00:33:54,866 Elder Boyd K. Packer, 570 00:33:54,866 --> 00:33:56,743 one of the highest-ranking leaders of the Church, 571 00:33:56,743 --> 00:33:59,913 really takes on the mantle of Kimball 572 00:33:59,913 --> 00:34:03,124 in combating homosexuality. 573 00:34:03,124 --> 00:34:05,043 Now there are some men who entice young men 574 00:34:05,043 --> 00:34:07,754 to join them in these immoral acts. 575 00:34:07,754 --> 00:34:09,673 If you are ever approached 576 00:34:09,673 --> 00:34:12,842 to participate in anything like that, 577 00:34:12,842 --> 00:34:16,638 that is the time to vigorously resist. 578 00:34:16,638 --> 00:34:19,182 There's this interesting moment when Elder Packer, 579 00:34:19,182 --> 00:34:20,767 in his speech, 580 00:34:20,767 --> 00:34:24,354 praises a missionary for assaulting his companion 581 00:34:24,354 --> 00:34:27,607 when his companion made a sexual advance. 582 00:34:27,607 --> 00:34:32,237 My response was, "Well, thanks. Somebody had to do it." 583 00:34:36,157 --> 00:34:38,243 It wouldn't be well for a general authority 584 00:34:38,243 --> 00:34:41,496 to solve a problem in that way. 585 00:34:43,415 --> 00:34:45,583 Now, I'm not recommending that course to you, 586 00:34:45,583 --> 00:34:47,502 my young friends, 587 00:34:47,502 --> 00:34:50,338 but I'm not omitting it. 588 00:34:50,338 --> 00:34:55,677 You must-- 589 00:34:55,677 --> 00:34:58,888 You must protect yourselves. 590 00:35:05,437 --> 00:35:09,190 We've witnessed a rapid and increasing public acceptance 591 00:35:09,190 --> 00:35:11,735 of cohabitation without marriage 592 00:35:11,735 --> 00:35:14,237 and same-sex marriage. 593 00:35:14,237 --> 00:35:17,824 The corresponding media advocacy, education 594 00:35:17,824 --> 00:35:20,785 and even occupational requirements 595 00:35:20,785 --> 00:35:24,789 pose difficult challenges for Latter-day Saints. 596 00:35:24,789 --> 00:35:27,667 Within a year of when Dallin Oaks became a member 597 00:35:27,667 --> 00:35:29,711 of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, 598 00:35:29,711 --> 00:35:33,882 he wrote a lengthy memo reflective of his own background 599 00:35:33,882 --> 00:35:38,219 as a justice in the Utah Supreme Court. 600 00:35:38,219 --> 00:35:42,140 It became a playbook for how the Church should 601 00:35:42,140 --> 00:35:46,603 and, in fact, did proceed to defend its position 602 00:35:46,603 --> 00:35:50,940 against what he saw as a possibility, eventually, 603 00:35:50,940 --> 00:35:53,860 of same-sex marriage coming to the forefront 604 00:35:53,860 --> 00:35:56,237 of the gay rights movement. 605 00:35:56,237 --> 00:35:57,739 He says there's a potential 606 00:35:57,739 --> 00:35:59,908 for the normalization of homosexuality 607 00:35:59,908 --> 00:36:02,952 that becomes so severe that the Church must speak up. 608 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,207 In 1990, three same-sex couples 609 00:36:07,207 --> 00:36:09,376 put Hawaii's tolerance to the test 610 00:36:09,376 --> 00:36:11,503 when they applied for marriage licenses. 611 00:36:11,503 --> 00:36:14,422 We grew up realizing that marriage is the next progression 612 00:36:14,422 --> 00:36:16,674 after you find somebody and fall in love with them. 613 00:36:16,674 --> 00:36:18,802 That's the next thing you do is get married. 614 00:36:18,802 --> 00:36:22,055 I wanted to marry Ninia early on in our relationship. 615 00:36:22,055 --> 00:36:25,100 It's unfortunate that gay people can't do that. 616 00:36:25,100 --> 00:36:26,935 They can't just run away and elope. 617 00:36:26,935 --> 00:36:29,354 The lawsuit in Hawaii 618 00:36:29,354 --> 00:36:31,773 represented the Church's entry 619 00:36:31,773 --> 00:36:34,150 formally into the political arena 620 00:36:34,150 --> 00:36:36,152 on the subject of same-sex marriage. 621 00:36:36,152 --> 00:36:38,988 A male and a female walk in, and they're not married, 622 00:36:38,988 --> 00:36:41,074 and they want a license, you give it to 'em. 623 00:36:41,074 --> 00:36:43,326 A male and a male walk in and want a license, 624 00:36:43,326 --> 00:36:44,661 you won't give it to 'em. 625 00:36:44,661 --> 00:36:46,413 You are discriminating against them. 626 00:36:46,413 --> 00:36:50,083 And this is where the shockwave began 627 00:36:50,083 --> 00:36:52,877 that swept across the Pacific Ocean 628 00:36:52,877 --> 00:36:56,214 and flooded the mainland from coast to coast. 629 00:36:56,214 --> 00:37:00,635 This sets off alarm bells in Salt Lake City, 630 00:37:00,635 --> 00:37:04,389 and the Church goes into full-response mode. 631 00:37:04,389 --> 00:37:06,224 It starts to organize politically. 632 00:37:06,224 --> 00:37:08,810 It starts to organize its teachings. 633 00:37:08,810 --> 00:37:11,104 There's a real push for thinking 634 00:37:11,104 --> 00:37:13,606 about heterosexuality and the family 635 00:37:13,606 --> 00:37:15,692 and a new kind of mobilization 636 00:37:15,692 --> 00:37:19,446 of anti-gay politics during this time period. 637 00:37:20,947 --> 00:37:22,323 In the context of all this, 638 00:37:22,323 --> 00:37:25,076 it issues a political document called 639 00:37:25,076 --> 00:37:27,454 "The Family: A Proclamation to the World." 640 00:37:27,454 --> 00:37:30,248 This document appeals to members of the Church, 641 00:37:30,248 --> 00:37:33,042 but it also appeals to judges and legislatures. 642 00:37:33,042 --> 00:37:36,796 I now take the opportunity of reading to you 643 00:37:36,796 --> 00:37:38,631 this proclamation. 644 00:37:38,631 --> 00:37:42,135 It became central to Mormon identity really quickly. 645 00:37:42,135 --> 00:37:44,387 Missionaries began to hand out copies 646 00:37:44,387 --> 00:37:45,722 of the proclamation on the family, 647 00:37:45,722 --> 00:37:47,474 saying this is what we believe. 648 00:37:47,474 --> 00:37:50,560 Members of the Church began to frame copies of it 649 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:51,978 and hang it on their wall. 650 00:37:51,978 --> 00:37:54,731 It's really impossible to overestimate 651 00:37:54,731 --> 00:38:00,195 the importance of this document in Mormon teaching. 652 00:38:00,195 --> 00:38:02,864 We solemnly proclaim that marriage 653 00:38:02,864 --> 00:38:06,993 between a man and a woman is ordained of God, 654 00:38:06,993 --> 00:38:10,788 and the family is central to the Creator's plan 655 00:38:10,788 --> 00:38:14,000 for the eternal destiny of these children. 656 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:18,004 This document doesn't mention homosexuality at all, 657 00:38:18,004 --> 00:38:21,341 which is, in part, the genius. 658 00:38:21,341 --> 00:38:24,010 "We further declare that God has commanded 659 00:38:24,010 --> 00:38:27,263 that the sacred powers of procreation 660 00:38:27,263 --> 00:38:30,099 are to be employed only between man and woman 661 00:38:30,099 --> 00:38:32,936 lawfully wedded as husband and wife. 662 00:38:32,936 --> 00:38:35,355 We call upon responsible citizens 663 00:38:35,355 --> 00:38:38,191 and officers of government everywhere 664 00:38:38,191 --> 00:38:39,734 to promote those measures 665 00:38:39,734 --> 00:38:43,154 designed to maintain and strengthen the family 666 00:38:43,154 --> 00:38:46,241 as the fundamental unit of society." 667 00:38:47,951 --> 00:38:49,911 The conflict between Mormons 668 00:38:49,911 --> 00:38:51,579 and gay rights activists, 669 00:38:51,579 --> 00:38:53,957 both within and outside of the Church, 670 00:38:53,957 --> 00:38:58,461 becomes the defining issue of modern Mormonism. 671 00:38:58,461 --> 00:39:00,088 And so it's in this climate 672 00:39:00,088 --> 00:39:04,259 that we see the predominantly Mormon Utah legislature 673 00:39:04,259 --> 00:39:06,803 pass laws that ban gay marriage, 674 00:39:06,803 --> 00:39:09,264 refuse to recognize same-sex unions 675 00:39:09,264 --> 00:39:11,391 that are legal in other states, 676 00:39:11,391 --> 00:39:13,476 and that then leads us to Amendment 3. 677 00:39:29,701 --> 00:39:32,954 Tonight same-sex marriage in Utah is taking center stage. 678 00:39:32,954 --> 00:39:34,956 Three couples are challenging the ban, 679 00:39:34,956 --> 00:39:37,500 saying it's unconstitutional. 680 00:39:37,500 --> 00:39:41,379 Having the ability to walk into a federal courtroom 681 00:39:41,379 --> 00:39:43,756 in Salt Lake City, Utah, 682 00:39:43,756 --> 00:39:47,093 with a real federal judge sitting behind the bench 683 00:39:47,093 --> 00:39:48,845 and being able to argue 684 00:39:48,845 --> 00:39:51,639 why the Constitution did not permit 685 00:39:51,639 --> 00:39:56,603 a failure to recognize gays and lesbians as equal citizens 686 00:39:56,603 --> 00:39:58,646 was something I never dreamed I'd see 687 00:39:58,646 --> 00:40:00,231 in a courtroom in my life, 688 00:40:00,231 --> 00:40:02,775 let alone me being the one that got to do it. 689 00:40:02,775 --> 00:40:04,819 Peggy is standing there, 690 00:40:04,819 --> 00:40:07,905 and Judge Shelby asked her a question to the effect of, 691 00:40:07,905 --> 00:40:10,867 "If I rule on this, will I be the first court 692 00:40:10,867 --> 00:40:13,369 to address these issues?" 693 00:40:13,369 --> 00:40:15,288 Peggy, without missing a beat says, 694 00:40:15,288 --> 00:40:18,166 "Yes, congratulations." 695 00:40:18,166 --> 00:40:21,127 And the courtroom erupts into laughter. 696 00:40:21,127 --> 00:40:23,963 I sat there and watched Peggy for an hour and a half 697 00:40:23,963 --> 00:40:26,341 engaging with Judge Shelby. 698 00:40:26,341 --> 00:40:28,009 He didn't take his eyes off her. 699 00:40:28,009 --> 00:40:29,928 It was amazing. That's when I realized 700 00:40:29,928 --> 00:40:31,554 what kind of an attorney she was. 701 00:40:31,554 --> 00:40:33,848 She was an amazing woman. It was brilliant. 702 00:40:33,848 --> 00:40:36,351 I just-- Wow. I was in awe. 703 00:40:36,351 --> 00:40:40,480 Then we got to watch guys from the Attorney General's office 704 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:43,399 make asses out of themselves for 45 minutes. 705 00:40:43,399 --> 00:40:46,819 They tried really hard to make this argument 706 00:40:46,819 --> 00:40:49,405 without bringing in God and religion into it 707 00:40:49,405 --> 00:40:51,282 'cause they knew they couldn't. 708 00:40:51,282 --> 00:40:54,410 In a United States court, it's the culture of the state. 709 00:40:54,410 --> 00:40:56,412 The states hired LDS people, 710 00:40:56,412 --> 00:40:59,999 and they tried to make a secular argument out of it, 711 00:40:59,999 --> 00:41:03,795 but it's not possible for them to do. 712 00:41:03,795 --> 00:41:07,090 Judge Shelby-- and this, I think, was kind of him-- 713 00:41:07,090 --> 00:41:09,592 said he would let us know by January 7th. 714 00:41:09,592 --> 00:41:11,761 That's why when December 20th happened, 715 00:41:11,761 --> 00:41:12,929 nobody expected it. 716 00:41:18,434 --> 00:41:19,811 For you folks who are just tuning in, 717 00:41:19,811 --> 00:41:22,063 Amendment 3 of Utah's Constitution 718 00:41:22,063 --> 00:41:24,857 has been declared unconstitutional. 719 00:41:24,857 --> 00:41:26,859 So right now marriage licenses 720 00:41:26,859 --> 00:41:29,112 are being handed out to same-sex couples. 721 00:41:29,112 --> 00:41:31,447 Some marriages are actually being performed in Salt Lake. 722 00:41:31,447 --> 00:41:33,199 I was at work. 723 00:41:33,199 --> 00:41:36,160 About 2:00, we get an email from Peggy: "We won." 724 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:37,787 To file a case in March 725 00:41:37,787 --> 00:41:41,541 and have a decision by December 20th of the same year, 726 00:41:41,541 --> 00:41:45,169 it's never happened in my 31 years of practice. 727 00:41:45,169 --> 00:41:47,630 We received a phone call that said, 728 00:41:47,630 --> 00:41:49,215 "Did you hear the news?" 729 00:41:49,215 --> 00:41:50,633 And they were like, "No, what's the news?" 730 00:41:50,633 --> 00:41:52,135 They said, "You won." 731 00:41:52,135 --> 00:41:54,053 I got in my car. 732 00:41:54,053 --> 00:41:56,723 I drove to Cind-- I texted her. I said, 733 00:41:56,723 --> 00:41:59,517 "We won, we won, we won. Will you marry me? 734 00:41:59,517 --> 00:42:02,270 I'm on my way to your office to pick you up to get married." 735 00:42:02,270 --> 00:42:04,147 She goes, "We won what?" 736 00:42:04,147 --> 00:42:07,775 I go, "We won our case. We can get married." 737 00:42:07,775 --> 00:42:09,819 And she goes, "Of course I'll marry you." 738 00:42:09,819 --> 00:42:14,240 So I drive to her office, and I text, "I'm here, I'm here. 739 00:42:14,240 --> 00:42:15,742 Come out, let's go." 740 00:42:15,742 --> 00:42:17,869 She texted me back, "I'm a doctor. 741 00:42:17,869 --> 00:42:21,164 I'm with patients. I cannot leave." 742 00:42:21,164 --> 00:42:24,000 I go, "Have 'em come. They can be our witnesses." 743 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:27,587 It is an enormous day for Utah. 744 00:42:27,587 --> 00:42:29,756 Not only for same-sex couples, 745 00:42:29,756 --> 00:42:32,842 but it brings equality to the entire state. 746 00:42:32,842 --> 00:42:34,343 Our case was very strong. 747 00:42:34,343 --> 00:42:37,847 Our law firm, our legal team was brilliant. 748 00:42:37,847 --> 00:42:41,768 They were passionate, and we told the truth. 749 00:42:41,768 --> 00:42:44,145 Now pronounce you wife and wife. 750 00:42:44,145 --> 00:42:48,775 I'm joined now by a couple who just got married 15 seconds ago. 751 00:42:48,775 --> 00:42:50,651 You have been together several years now. 752 00:42:50,651 --> 00:42:53,237 What does this mean for you? 753 00:42:53,237 --> 00:42:55,323 It means that we're legally married 754 00:42:55,323 --> 00:42:58,117 in the eyes of the state. 755 00:42:58,117 --> 00:43:00,620 It means everything to us. 756 00:43:00,620 --> 00:43:03,539 Laurie and I looked at each other, and we said, 757 00:43:03,539 --> 00:43:06,959 "Let's do this," and so we did. 758 00:43:06,959 --> 00:43:08,836 And it was... 759 00:43:15,718 --> 00:43:18,304 Um, it was unexpected. 760 00:43:18,304 --> 00:43:22,934 Then once I looked into her eyes, 761 00:43:22,934 --> 00:43:25,436 and I said, "I do," 762 00:43:25,436 --> 00:43:27,605 and I got to be her wife, 763 00:43:27,605 --> 00:43:30,942 then I really, really got it. 764 00:43:32,860 --> 00:43:35,947 It was as sacred as anything. 765 00:43:35,947 --> 00:43:41,118 And to have the entire courtyard erupt in cheers, 766 00:43:41,118 --> 00:43:42,995 it was just fantastic. 767 00:43:42,995 --> 00:43:45,206 Of all the pictures I've ever seen of me, 768 00:43:45,206 --> 00:43:49,669 I love that picture 'cause I've never seen me happier. 769 00:43:52,630 --> 00:43:55,508 We kept asking ourselves after the hearing 770 00:43:55,508 --> 00:43:58,970 when are they going to file the motion to stay the ruling? 771 00:43:58,970 --> 00:44:01,389 We expect it's coming. They've got some time. 772 00:44:01,389 --> 00:44:03,432 We know the judge isn't gonna rule right away, 773 00:44:03,432 --> 00:44:05,518 but there's a chance they might lose. 774 00:44:05,518 --> 00:44:09,397 And when the decision came down, there was no stay. 775 00:44:09,397 --> 00:44:11,774 Now, at the time the Utah Attorney General's office 776 00:44:11,774 --> 00:44:13,067 was a train wreck. 777 00:44:13,067 --> 00:44:15,611 They never bothered filing a stay, 778 00:44:15,611 --> 00:44:18,197 which is a normal procedure in a court proceeding. 779 00:44:18,197 --> 00:44:20,366 I guess they couldn't even possibly imagine 780 00:44:20,366 --> 00:44:21,909 they were gonna lose this case. 781 00:44:21,909 --> 00:44:25,496 So I drive back to the office and go in, 782 00:44:25,496 --> 00:44:29,542 and Judge Shelby's office calls and said, 783 00:44:29,542 --> 00:44:33,880 "Judge Shelby wants you and the state lawyer on the line." 784 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:35,506 "What's your question?" 785 00:44:35,506 --> 00:44:38,384 He goes, "We don't understand your decision." 786 00:44:38,384 --> 00:44:41,637 "What do you mean, you don't understand my decision?" 787 00:44:41,637 --> 00:44:46,309 "There's nothing in there saying you're staying your decision, 788 00:44:46,309 --> 00:44:48,853 and we understand people are getting married." 789 00:44:48,853 --> 00:44:51,314 I said, "I understand that too, Your Honor." 790 00:44:51,314 --> 00:44:53,524 He said, "You didn't file a motion 791 00:44:53,524 --> 00:44:55,776 to ask me to stay my decision. 792 00:44:55,776 --> 00:44:59,322 You tell me when you will file your motion for a stay, 793 00:44:59,322 --> 00:45:01,532 and I'll immediately hold a hearing." 794 00:45:01,532 --> 00:45:03,200 The lawyer for the state goes, 795 00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:05,119 "I don't know what we're gonna do." 796 00:45:05,119 --> 00:45:07,038 And Judge Shelby goes, 797 00:45:07,038 --> 00:45:11,375 "I guess there's nothing I can do for you then. Good day." 798 00:45:11,375 --> 00:45:14,420 What the state of Utah was asking Judge Shelby to do 799 00:45:14,420 --> 00:45:16,923 was rule on a motion that they had never filed. 800 00:45:16,923 --> 00:45:20,134 If there had been a national right-wing organization 801 00:45:20,134 --> 00:45:22,678 in the case that litigated these things all the time, 802 00:45:22,678 --> 00:45:25,139 I guarantee you they would've filed a motion for a stay. 803 00:45:25,139 --> 00:45:27,308 It seems to me they would've had a pretty good argument. 804 00:45:27,308 --> 00:45:30,144 But their argument was a whole lot worse 805 00:45:30,144 --> 00:45:33,814 once hundreds, maybe thousands, of people had been married 806 00:45:33,814 --> 00:45:35,566 because how do you unring that bell? 807 00:45:35,566 --> 00:45:38,986 They missed the movement and took for granted 808 00:45:38,986 --> 00:45:41,906 that their worldview was the worldview 809 00:45:41,906 --> 00:45:43,866 of everyone within the confines of the state. 810 00:45:43,866 --> 00:45:45,785 And because there's so little separation 811 00:45:45,785 --> 00:45:48,955 between Church and State in Utah, 812 00:45:48,955 --> 00:45:52,541 I'm sure that officials in the Attorney General's office 813 00:45:52,541 --> 00:45:54,043 not only believed they were right, 814 00:45:54,043 --> 00:45:55,336 but they just believed everyone else 815 00:45:55,336 --> 00:45:56,963 would think they were right. 816 00:45:56,963 --> 00:45:59,799 So we got our license, we went downstairs. 817 00:45:59,799 --> 00:46:01,759 Mayor Becker was there, and he said, 818 00:46:01,759 --> 00:46:05,429 "Peggy, can I perform the marriage ceremony?" 819 00:46:05,429 --> 00:46:07,139 I said sure. 820 00:46:07,139 --> 00:46:10,476 So Mayor Becker said to Marcelino, 821 00:46:10,476 --> 00:46:13,562 "How do you feel about this?" after he performed the ceremony, 822 00:46:13,562 --> 00:46:17,024 and he goes, "Wow. Wow. 823 00:46:17,024 --> 00:46:19,860 Wow. My mom's been finally married!" 824 00:46:19,860 --> 00:46:22,154 So... 825 00:46:22,154 --> 00:46:25,700 The national media descends on the state of Utah, 826 00:46:25,700 --> 00:46:29,870 and what do they see... 827 00:46:29,870 --> 00:46:36,168 but hundreds of loving couples getting married. 828 00:46:36,168 --> 00:46:39,088 All their life, "No, you're not good enough. 829 00:46:39,088 --> 00:46:41,799 You cannot have this. You're second class. 830 00:46:41,799 --> 00:46:45,886 There they were getting married. It was like an assembly line. 831 00:46:45,886 --> 00:46:49,181 And then I looked around, and I realized all this time 832 00:46:49,181 --> 00:46:50,725 we've been saying this isn't about kids. 833 00:46:50,725 --> 00:46:53,227 Friend of mine says, "Do you know how many kids 834 00:46:53,227 --> 00:46:55,021 are gonna wake up in the morning, 835 00:46:55,021 --> 00:46:56,522 and their parents are married, 836 00:46:56,522 --> 00:46:59,025 and their families are gonna be equal?" 837 00:47:00,609 --> 00:47:04,572 Back in the corner, there were these two women-- 838 00:47:04,572 --> 00:47:07,241 later found out they'd been together for 18 years-- 839 00:47:07,241 --> 00:47:09,785 they were both standing there holding their marriage license, 840 00:47:09,785 --> 00:47:13,080 just reading it line by line and crying. 841 00:47:17,251 --> 00:47:18,919 And then you have the angry villagers 842 00:47:18,919 --> 00:47:21,130 with their pitchforks and torches 843 00:47:21,130 --> 00:47:24,467 down in Happy Valley screaming and ranting and raving. 844 00:47:24,467 --> 00:47:26,427 These were people who were tied to the LDS Church. 845 00:47:26,427 --> 00:47:29,013 These are Christians. These are religious people. 846 00:47:29,013 --> 00:47:30,931 All they are down there is hate. 847 00:47:30,931 --> 00:47:33,601 Full of hate and anger and rage, 848 00:47:33,601 --> 00:47:35,936 trying to figure out how they're gonna fight 849 00:47:35,936 --> 00:47:40,399 people who are... in love. 850 00:47:40,399 --> 00:47:43,611 These organizations claim to be pro-family. They're not. 851 00:47:43,611 --> 00:47:46,072 They're the worst you can be for families. 852 00:47:46,072 --> 00:47:49,992 They're only pro-their-families as they define them. 853 00:47:49,992 --> 00:47:51,744 Gayle Ruzika of the Utah Eagle Forum 854 00:47:51,744 --> 00:47:54,038 lobbied heavily in favor of Amendment 3, 855 00:47:54,038 --> 00:47:56,207 and says she and others will continue to fight 856 00:47:56,207 --> 00:47:58,042 for traditional marriage. 857 00:47:58,042 --> 00:48:02,004 Marriage is a state issue. It is not a federal issue. 858 00:48:02,004 --> 00:48:06,550 A federal judge does not have the right to tell Utah 859 00:48:06,550 --> 00:48:09,261 what we're going to do with our marriage laws. 860 00:48:09,261 --> 00:48:11,013 BYU law professor Lynn Wardle 861 00:48:11,013 --> 00:48:13,557 has published extensively for years 862 00:48:13,557 --> 00:48:16,352 his arguments against same-sex marriage. 863 00:48:16,352 --> 00:48:18,687 What is the effect of those marriages? 864 00:48:18,687 --> 00:48:21,232 That's a very tough legal question. 865 00:48:24,276 --> 00:48:26,529 Governor Gary Herbert issued this statement. 866 00:48:26,529 --> 00:48:28,781 "The state is requesting an emergency stay 867 00:48:28,781 --> 00:48:30,616 on this ruling, pending the appeal." 868 00:48:30,616 --> 00:48:32,618 This is a significant decision. 869 00:48:32,618 --> 00:48:34,453 First in history. 870 00:48:34,453 --> 00:48:36,747 We will defend the law that's on the books, 871 00:48:36,747 --> 00:48:39,875 which we do recognize as the will of the people. 872 00:48:39,875 --> 00:48:43,003 I was a supporter of Amendment 3 as a individual. 873 00:48:43,003 --> 00:48:46,340 I think that's the best way to have family arrangements 874 00:48:46,340 --> 00:48:47,800 and the best chance for children, 875 00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,511 husband and wife, father and mother. 876 00:48:50,511 --> 00:48:52,388 The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 877 00:48:52,388 --> 00:48:54,431 reacting to the ruling in a statement. 878 00:48:54,431 --> 00:48:57,935 The Church says, "We continue to believe that voters in Utah 879 00:48:57,935 --> 00:49:00,563 did the right thing by providing clear direction 880 00:49:00,563 --> 00:49:02,648 in the State Constitution 881 00:49:02,648 --> 00:49:04,733 that marriage should be between a man and a woman. 882 00:49:04,733 --> 00:49:08,737 We're hopeful this view will be validated by a higher court." 883 00:49:08,737 --> 00:49:10,614 News specialist Sandra Yi's live in Salt Lake City tonight 884 00:49:10,614 --> 00:49:12,408 with our top story. 885 00:49:12,408 --> 00:49:17,079 Sandra, how many counties are refusing to issue licenses? 886 00:49:17,079 --> 00:49:20,207 Well, Dave, we called every clerk's office in the state, 887 00:49:20,207 --> 00:49:23,002 and five do not have plans to issue marriage licenses 888 00:49:23,002 --> 00:49:24,879 to same-sex couples. 889 00:49:24,879 --> 00:49:26,005 News at Nine. 890 00:49:26,005 --> 00:49:27,715 Thank you for joining us. 891 00:49:27,715 --> 00:49:31,177 It was billed by organizers as a call for an uprising 892 00:49:31,177 --> 00:49:34,138 after a federal court decision voided Utah law 893 00:49:34,138 --> 00:49:35,514 against gay marriage. 894 00:49:35,514 --> 00:49:37,057 The event is in Utah County. 895 00:49:37,057 --> 00:49:40,686 Fox 13's Todd Tanner is live in Highland. 896 00:49:40,686 --> 00:49:42,438 The event was organized by 897 00:49:42,438 --> 00:49:45,774 the Constitutional Sheriffs and Police Officers Association. 898 00:49:45,774 --> 00:49:48,485 Organizers and speakers here say that basically 899 00:49:48,485 --> 00:49:50,779 Governor Herbert has failed at his job, 900 00:49:50,779 --> 00:49:52,907 and it will be up to law enforcement 901 00:49:52,907 --> 00:49:55,826 and everyday citizens to deny gay marriage. 902 00:49:55,826 --> 00:49:57,703 We need people to stand up and speak out. 903 00:49:57,703 --> 00:49:59,955 We need to get noisy. We need some outrage. 904 00:49:59,955 --> 00:50:02,416 The way you take back freedom in America 905 00:50:02,416 --> 00:50:04,168 is one county at a time. 906 00:50:04,168 --> 00:50:08,422 The sheriffs need to defend the county clerks in saying no, 907 00:50:08,422 --> 00:50:11,550 we're not gonna issue marriage licenses to homosexuals. 908 00:50:25,231 --> 00:50:29,777 I wanna say this to the homosexual community. 909 00:50:29,777 --> 00:50:33,030 We mean you no harm. 910 00:50:33,030 --> 00:50:35,282 First, we ask you that you understand 911 00:50:35,282 --> 00:50:36,992 the history of America 912 00:50:36,992 --> 00:50:39,245 and that the intention of the Founding Fathers 913 00:50:39,245 --> 00:50:42,373 in developing a Constitution that does one thing: 914 00:50:42,373 --> 00:50:46,710 protect God-given, innate rights. 915 00:50:46,710 --> 00:50:48,754 And these people fought and died for this. 916 00:50:48,754 --> 00:50:52,925 Now we're going, "We'll write whatever we say they are now." 917 00:50:52,925 --> 00:50:56,512 You're never going to convince us 918 00:50:56,512 --> 00:50:59,098 that homosexual marriage 919 00:50:59,098 --> 00:51:02,309 is one of those innate, God-given rights. 920 00:51:02,309 --> 00:51:04,144 It's not. 921 00:51:04,144 --> 00:51:07,189 It's not one of those rights. 922 00:51:07,189 --> 00:51:10,985 And we don't want any more of your gay appreciation parades. 923 00:51:10,985 --> 00:51:12,611 And we don't want any more of this, 924 00:51:12,611 --> 00:51:14,280 "We're gonna teach this in the schools 925 00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:17,199 without our permission and without us being involved." 926 00:51:17,199 --> 00:51:19,285 We have rights, 927 00:51:19,285 --> 00:51:23,497 and we choose not to teach that to our children, 928 00:51:23,497 --> 00:51:26,625 and we don't want you teaching it to 'em either! 929 00:51:31,588 --> 00:51:35,884 ♪ Jesus said of everyone ♪ 930 00:51:35,884 --> 00:51:40,264 ♪ Treat them kindly too ♪ 931 00:51:40,264 --> 00:51:44,727 ♪ When your heart is filled with love ♪ 932 00:51:44,727 --> 00:51:48,731 ♪ Others will love you ♪ 933 00:51:55,612 --> 00:51:57,614 I would like to introduce to you tonight 934 00:51:57,614 --> 00:52:00,743 the amazing brain behind all this, 935 00:52:00,743 --> 00:52:05,164 the glue that stuck this altogether for everybody, 936 00:52:05,164 --> 00:52:06,498 Mark Lawrence. 937 00:52:10,919 --> 00:52:13,672 Judge Shelby has a new title. 938 00:52:13,672 --> 00:52:16,258 He is an activist judge. 939 00:52:19,511 --> 00:52:21,847 I sat there and thought, "What is an activist judge?" 940 00:52:21,847 --> 00:52:24,767 Apparently an activist judge is a judge who understands 941 00:52:24,767 --> 00:52:27,186 the Constitution of the United States. 942 00:52:37,696 --> 00:52:41,909 Same-sex marriages in Utah are now on hold. 943 00:52:41,909 --> 00:52:45,371 Today the US Supreme Court granted the state a stay, 944 00:52:45,371 --> 00:52:47,581 which means gay couples in Utah 945 00:52:47,581 --> 00:52:50,209 will no longer receive marriage licenses. 946 00:52:50,209 --> 00:52:53,170 But what about couples that are already married? 947 00:52:53,170 --> 00:52:55,422 In a press conference responding to the ruling, 948 00:52:55,422 --> 00:52:58,550 new Utah Attorney General Sean Reyes says 949 00:52:58,550 --> 00:53:01,553 he doesn't know if marriages between Utah same-sex couples 950 00:53:01,553 --> 00:53:03,055 will remain valid. 951 00:53:03,055 --> 00:53:05,057 This is precisely the uncertainty 952 00:53:05,057 --> 00:53:06,809 we were hoping to avoid. 953 00:53:06,809 --> 00:53:09,770 Legal documents filed to the U.S. Supreme Court, 954 00:53:09,770 --> 00:53:12,481 where Utah made its case for a stay. 955 00:53:12,481 --> 00:53:14,900 The state went on to discuss the possibility 956 00:53:14,900 --> 00:53:18,987 of same-sex marriages being retroactively voided. 957 00:53:18,987 --> 00:53:21,156 Right now is a rough time for gay couples 958 00:53:21,156 --> 00:53:23,575 who want to adopt a child in the state of Utah. 959 00:53:23,575 --> 00:53:25,452 Although some couples may have completed 960 00:53:25,452 --> 00:53:26,954 the adoption process, 961 00:53:26,954 --> 00:53:29,248 the state wants to put those adoptions on hold. 962 00:53:29,248 --> 00:53:31,625 The City of Utah says its constitutional authority 963 00:53:31,625 --> 00:53:34,044 to define marriage should stay intact. 964 00:53:34,044 --> 00:53:36,130 That is according to a legal brief filed 965 00:53:36,130 --> 00:53:38,632 with the Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals late last night. 966 00:53:38,632 --> 00:53:40,342 Tonight political specialist Richard Pye 967 00:53:40,342 --> 00:53:42,261 says the waiting game begins 968 00:53:42,261 --> 00:53:45,013 even as emotions simmer over this issue. 969 00:53:45,013 --> 00:53:46,682 State attorneys insist 970 00:53:46,682 --> 00:53:49,685 society can only have one understanding of marriage 971 00:53:49,685 --> 00:53:52,187 as a one-man, one-woman institution, 972 00:53:52,187 --> 00:53:53,981 the best for raising children. 973 00:53:53,981 --> 00:53:56,483 "Redefining marriage," the brief reads, 974 00:53:56,483 --> 00:53:59,528 "as a genderless, adult-centric institution 975 00:53:59,528 --> 00:54:02,865 would fundamentally change Utah's child-centered meaning 976 00:54:02,865 --> 00:54:04,450 and purpose of marriage." 977 00:54:04,450 --> 00:54:07,411 "Instead," the state says, "the laws at issue here 978 00:54:07,411 --> 00:54:09,746 simply encourage a familial structure 979 00:54:09,746 --> 00:54:12,541 that has served society for thousands of years." 980 00:54:12,541 --> 00:54:15,377 At the legislature, leadership in the Utah Senate 981 00:54:15,377 --> 00:54:17,171 quietly cheered this brief 982 00:54:17,171 --> 00:54:19,673 on the basis of state and religious freedom. 983 00:54:19,673 --> 00:54:22,593 We feel it's a duty to defend our jurisdiction 984 00:54:22,593 --> 00:54:25,179 over the definition of marriage. 985 00:54:25,179 --> 00:54:29,808 They really recognize the issues of religious freedom. 986 00:54:29,808 --> 00:54:33,645 They recognize the issues of how do we raise children. 987 00:54:33,645 --> 00:54:35,105 The case now goes before 988 00:54:35,105 --> 00:54:36,857 a federal appeals court in Denver, 989 00:54:36,857 --> 00:54:40,068 but many expect it to find its way to the Supreme Court. 990 00:54:40,068 --> 00:54:41,904 A Supreme Court decision could have 991 00:54:41,904 --> 00:54:43,906 major repercussions across the country. 992 00:54:43,906 --> 00:54:45,782 If Utah's ban is overturned, 993 00:54:45,782 --> 00:54:48,160 the same could happen for same-sex marriage bans 994 00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:50,829 in nearly 30 other states. 995 00:55:11,850 --> 00:55:14,061 The way things kept falling into place 996 00:55:14,061 --> 00:55:15,854 for this case, 997 00:55:15,854 --> 00:55:18,815 I just got to a point where it became so euphoric for a while, 998 00:55:18,815 --> 00:55:22,069 we didn't think anything could go wrong. 999 00:55:22,069 --> 00:55:24,821 I was really, really convinced this was gonna work 1000 00:55:24,821 --> 00:55:27,241 because we were a small independent team 1001 00:55:27,241 --> 00:55:29,952 working together just for Utah. 1002 00:55:29,952 --> 00:55:33,038 But I was getting guff from national organizations going, 1003 00:55:33,038 --> 00:55:36,833 "You shouldn't be doing this. This is too big for you." 1004 00:55:36,833 --> 00:55:40,254 I just said, "Fuck you. What are you doing?" 1005 00:55:40,254 --> 00:55:45,133 The pushback was phone calls telling us that, 1006 00:55:45,133 --> 00:55:49,805 "You are a little law firm in the backwater of the nation." 1007 00:55:49,805 --> 00:55:53,058 Everybody believed we would never get it done here. 1008 00:55:53,058 --> 00:55:54,476 We're too red. 1009 00:55:54,476 --> 00:55:56,144 It's too conservative. 1010 00:55:56,144 --> 00:55:58,647 It's the home of the LDS Church. 1011 00:55:58,647 --> 00:56:02,568 60-plus percent had passed Amendment 3. 1012 00:56:02,568 --> 00:56:07,197 People were very unhappy with us. I mean pissed. 1013 00:56:07,197 --> 00:56:10,867 A case from Utah was not on anybody's agenda. 1014 00:56:10,867 --> 00:56:14,871 It's not because, "Oh, you can't have glory. 1015 00:56:14,871 --> 00:56:17,708 It needs to be done our way. We need the glory." 1016 00:56:17,708 --> 00:56:19,876 A lot of these large national organizations 1017 00:56:19,876 --> 00:56:22,087 were what I called professional homosexuals. 1018 00:56:22,087 --> 00:56:26,341 People who make six-digit incomes on exploiting being gay. 1019 00:56:26,341 --> 00:56:29,219 They all had these roadmaps all lined up. 1020 00:56:29,219 --> 00:56:31,221 They were gonna win marriage equality 1021 00:56:31,221 --> 00:56:34,016 because they have to justify their six-digit incomes 1022 00:56:34,016 --> 00:56:35,225 to their donors. 1023 00:56:35,225 --> 00:56:36,810 When you go full-steam ahead 1024 00:56:36,810 --> 00:56:38,687 with the righteousness of your convictions, 1025 00:56:38,687 --> 00:56:40,397 and you think you've got it nailed, 1026 00:56:40,397 --> 00:56:42,441 and you think you know exactly what you're doing, 1027 00:56:42,441 --> 00:56:44,192 and then you lose. 1028 00:56:44,192 --> 00:56:45,861 In the cases we're involved in, 1029 00:56:45,861 --> 00:56:48,155 you don't just lose for your client, 1030 00:56:48,155 --> 00:56:51,199 you lose for the whole effing community. 1031 00:56:52,909 --> 00:56:57,080 I uniformly got shut down by every one of the experts 1032 00:56:57,080 --> 00:56:59,708 telling me that they were not willing to help me 1033 00:56:59,708 --> 00:57:02,794 because I was not affiliated with a national organization. 1034 00:57:02,794 --> 00:57:06,131 So they just refused to help us, 1035 00:57:06,131 --> 00:57:09,217 and Mark was angry. 1036 00:57:09,217 --> 00:57:12,679 He's not a person who wanted to be 1037 00:57:12,679 --> 00:57:15,682 part of an organization telling him what to do. 1038 00:57:15,682 --> 00:57:17,225 But at the end of the day, 1039 00:57:17,225 --> 00:57:20,604 all of the organizations were all on the same team, 1040 00:57:20,604 --> 00:57:22,439 and you need to learn to play together 1041 00:57:22,439 --> 00:57:27,194 and use each other's strengths to get what y'all need. 1042 00:57:27,194 --> 00:57:30,030 Peggy then reached out to NCLR and said, 1043 00:57:30,030 --> 00:57:33,367 "I know NCLR understands these issues." 1044 00:57:33,367 --> 00:57:37,829 And so we started helping out and then came informally. 1045 00:57:43,710 --> 00:57:45,587 A couple of days later, I got a phone call 1046 00:57:45,587 --> 00:57:49,174 from an investor who had just sent us a check for $1,000. 1047 00:57:49,174 --> 00:57:52,302 He says, "Well, you better send me my check back." 1048 00:57:52,302 --> 00:57:54,471 I said, "What? What are you talking about?" 1049 00:57:54,471 --> 00:57:56,932 He said, "You guys have been going on and on 1050 00:57:56,932 --> 00:57:58,725 about this grassroots organization, 1051 00:57:58,725 --> 00:58:00,519 this little law firm, 1052 00:58:00,519 --> 00:58:03,188 and you've turned it over to a national organization." 1053 00:58:03,188 --> 00:58:07,734 I went onto the NCLR website, and there is Derek and Moudi. 1054 00:58:07,734 --> 00:58:11,863 "See our plaintiffs, our new case in Utah." 1055 00:58:11,863 --> 00:58:15,158 We were told that they would be representing the plaintiffs. 1056 00:58:15,158 --> 00:58:16,910 That started making me angry 1057 00:58:16,910 --> 00:58:19,746 because as far as I'm concerned, they have no right. 1058 00:58:19,746 --> 00:58:23,875 They have no justification coming here, telling us anything 1059 00:58:23,875 --> 00:58:25,210 because none of these organizations 1060 00:58:25,210 --> 00:58:27,295 have done anything for us. 1061 00:58:27,295 --> 00:58:30,924 All of a sudden, we were not included in meetings anymore. 1062 00:58:30,924 --> 00:58:34,594 We were not included in any communications anymore. 1063 00:58:34,594 --> 00:58:36,596 We had a really good thing going. 1064 00:58:36,596 --> 00:58:40,600 That good thing was driven apart by a national organization. 1065 00:58:42,352 --> 00:58:44,896 And then things started getting even worse. 1066 00:58:44,896 --> 00:58:47,858 It finally got to the point where it was, "All right, Mark, 1067 00:58:47,858 --> 00:58:50,235 shut the fuck up and get under the bus." 1068 00:58:50,235 --> 00:58:51,987 It was incredibly disappointing. 1069 00:58:51,987 --> 00:58:54,114 It's like being at the highest point in your whole life 1070 00:58:54,114 --> 00:58:56,241 and then being at the lowest point in your whole life. 1071 00:58:56,241 --> 00:58:57,743 It's like crashing. 1072 00:58:59,494 --> 00:59:04,374 Our primary purpose in this case was to raise the money. 1073 00:59:04,374 --> 00:59:05,959 I've never done fundraising before. 1074 00:59:05,959 --> 00:59:08,879 I just thought it was gonna be easy. 1075 00:59:08,879 --> 00:59:11,757 And that turned out to be... big disaster. 1076 00:59:11,757 --> 00:59:13,133 Did not happen. 1077 00:59:13,133 --> 00:59:15,302 I'm not a professional homosexual. 1078 00:59:15,302 --> 00:59:18,972 I'm an amateur homosexual. 1079 00:59:18,972 --> 00:59:20,724 You work, and you sweat, 1080 00:59:20,724 --> 00:59:24,144 and we kept thinking it'll take off any minute now. 1081 00:59:24,144 --> 00:59:27,814 Then we would have a fundraiser with 10 or 20 people at it. 1082 00:59:29,316 --> 00:59:31,860 People don't like giving money to lawyers. 1083 00:59:31,860 --> 00:59:33,737 And that's always gonna be that way. 1084 00:59:33,737 --> 00:59:36,531 People were appalled that they were charging us 1085 00:59:36,531 --> 00:59:38,658 and not doing this pro bono. 1086 00:59:38,658 --> 00:59:41,495 One of the things that's been said is that we were greedy, 1087 00:59:41,495 --> 00:59:43,747 that we wanted to make money off of this case. 1088 00:59:43,747 --> 00:59:46,208 I will admit that we wanted to be paid, 1089 00:59:46,208 --> 00:59:47,959 and that was a fundamental premise 1090 00:59:47,959 --> 00:59:50,253 of what Mark Lawrence told us when he came in the door. 1091 00:59:50,253 --> 00:59:53,840 At the end of the day, I think we are about $900,000 1092 00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:55,634 in unpaid attorney fees. 1093 00:59:55,634 --> 00:59:59,596 One other thing that really became an issue for us 1094 00:59:59,596 --> 01:00:02,307 was that they were lying about how much money we had paid. 1095 01:00:02,307 --> 01:00:05,852 There were even rumors that we were financially disreputable. 1096 01:00:05,852 --> 01:00:08,313 I think one of the other plaintiffs said 1097 01:00:08,313 --> 01:00:10,857 she had heard we had raised $200,000 1098 01:00:10,857 --> 01:00:13,860 and only 5,000 of it had gone to lawyers. 1099 01:00:13,860 --> 01:00:15,570 I thought, "Oh, my goodness." 1100 01:00:15,570 --> 01:00:18,865 We'd be lucky if we donated 5,000 to the lawyers. 1101 01:00:18,865 --> 01:00:21,451 What about 200,000? Wow! 1102 01:00:21,451 --> 01:00:24,287 There was no way we had ever raised that much. 1103 01:00:25,831 --> 01:00:28,583 A call for civility on social media 1104 01:00:28,583 --> 01:00:31,878 from the man at the heart of Utah's same-sex marriage case. 1105 01:00:31,878 --> 01:00:35,131 That call came appropriately enough on Facebook. 1106 01:00:35,131 --> 01:00:37,217 The author of the post is one of the plaintiffs 1107 01:00:37,217 --> 01:00:39,594 directly involved in same-sex marriage case. 1108 01:00:39,594 --> 01:00:44,140 I think it's important for us as a community to be respectful. 1109 01:00:44,140 --> 01:00:45,809 So when you direct a negative comment 1110 01:00:45,809 --> 01:00:47,519 towards Governor Herbert, 1111 01:00:47,519 --> 01:00:50,689 saying look at us, we're a family, 1112 01:00:50,689 --> 01:00:53,817 we are normal just like everybody else, 1113 01:00:53,817 --> 01:00:55,735 and then some bad words, 1114 01:00:55,735 --> 01:00:58,864 that's going to nullify the message 1115 01:00:58,864 --> 01:01:01,575 that you're trying to send to him. 1116 01:01:04,327 --> 01:01:06,955 Governor Herbert you are pandering 1117 01:01:06,955 --> 01:01:11,209 to a small group of radical fanatics. 1118 01:01:16,131 --> 01:01:18,884 You are harming our families. 1119 01:01:18,884 --> 01:01:22,846 You are harming the families who don't meet your tiny, 1120 01:01:22,846 --> 01:01:26,808 narrow, naive definition of what a family is. 1121 01:01:26,808 --> 01:01:29,019 Well, guess what, Gary. 1122 01:01:29,019 --> 01:01:31,313 There's a lot more of us. 1123 01:01:33,648 --> 01:01:36,109 And the hell with political correctness. 1124 01:01:39,029 --> 01:01:41,031 We started getting a lot of criticism 1125 01:01:41,031 --> 01:01:43,909 about what we were doing, and that became an issue. 1126 01:01:43,909 --> 01:01:46,953 The plaintiffs started becoming very volatile. 1127 01:01:46,953 --> 01:01:48,997 They were like little vials of nitroglycerin. 1128 01:01:48,997 --> 01:01:50,874 They had to be handled very carefully. 1129 01:01:52,584 --> 01:01:56,004 And things continued to break down. 1130 01:01:56,004 --> 01:01:59,674 We were called into a meeting at one of the plaintiff's house. 1131 01:01:59,674 --> 01:02:02,719 We sat with all the plaintiffs and the legal team, 1132 01:02:02,719 --> 01:02:05,096 and they proceeded to attack us. 1133 01:02:07,974 --> 01:02:10,143 Mark is irrational. 1134 01:02:10,143 --> 01:02:12,604 He's gonna have a burst of flames, 1135 01:02:12,604 --> 01:02:14,689 but it's gonna die out very quickly. 1136 01:02:14,689 --> 01:02:17,525 We are used to Moudi's little fucking shit-fits 1137 01:02:17,525 --> 01:02:18,944 and temper tantrums. 1138 01:02:18,944 --> 01:02:20,362 Every time he does this, 1139 01:02:20,362 --> 01:02:23,490 everybody bends him over and kisses his ass. 1140 01:02:23,490 --> 01:02:25,033 It's like, "Oh, God, Moudi's mad. 1141 01:02:25,033 --> 01:02:26,785 Oh, no, everybody drop what you're doing. 1142 01:02:26,785 --> 01:02:28,411 Moudi's pissed." 1143 01:02:28,411 --> 01:02:31,706 Mark has definitely laid the foundation for all of us, 1144 01:02:31,706 --> 01:02:33,833 and we need to be very appreciative. 1145 01:02:33,833 --> 01:02:35,377 You know what? 1146 01:02:35,377 --> 01:02:38,213 He had a vision, and I wanna grant him that. 1147 01:02:38,213 --> 01:02:42,217 But he cannot go on embarrassing us. 1148 01:02:42,217 --> 01:02:44,886 But a lot of it is just miscommunication. 1149 01:02:44,886 --> 01:02:47,347 No, it's not. That's not miscommunication. 1150 01:02:47,347 --> 01:02:49,641 Moudi is spouting his shit because he's frustrated. 1151 01:02:49,641 --> 01:02:51,977 He did not like the way I speak in my public speaking. 1152 01:02:51,977 --> 01:02:54,896 That is a weakness for me, and it's something-- I hate it. 1153 01:02:54,896 --> 01:02:57,065 I fucking hate public speaking. 1154 01:02:57,065 --> 01:02:58,483 I think that's the problem with Mark. 1155 01:02:58,483 --> 01:03:01,111 He takes an all-or-nothing approach. 1156 01:03:01,111 --> 01:03:03,697 I feel like I'm being attacked. 1157 01:03:10,745 --> 01:03:13,623 He had the warrior mentality, 1158 01:03:13,623 --> 01:03:16,418 and it wasn't the right time. 1159 01:03:18,837 --> 01:03:20,922 Mark harbored pretty hard feelings 1160 01:03:20,922 --> 01:03:23,883 about how he'd been treated. 1161 01:03:25,677 --> 01:03:28,763 But from our perspective, we really needed to make sure 1162 01:03:28,763 --> 01:03:32,851 we weren't doing any kind of damage that could hurt the case. 1163 01:03:34,894 --> 01:03:38,898 So I think that's really where we began to part ways. 1164 01:03:41,568 --> 01:03:44,029 I called a lawyer... 1165 01:03:45,780 --> 01:03:47,782 and I said I want you to dissolve our relationship 1166 01:03:47,782 --> 01:03:50,076 with Magleby & Greenwood. 1167 01:03:52,620 --> 01:03:55,457 We want nothing to do with these people again. 1168 01:04:07,510 --> 01:04:09,804 Utah will spend $300,000 1169 01:04:09,804 --> 01:04:12,557 to bring in a team of three outside attorneys 1170 01:04:12,557 --> 01:04:14,517 to help defend the state's same-sex marriage ban 1171 01:04:14,517 --> 01:04:16,352 before a federal appeals court. 1172 01:04:16,352 --> 01:04:19,606 The Utah Attorney General's office announced a few hours ago 1173 01:04:19,606 --> 01:04:22,400 that it has chosen Gene Scheer to lead the team. 1174 01:04:22,400 --> 01:04:24,360 Attorney General Sean Reyes says Scheer 1175 01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:27,906 has handled dozens of cases before federal appeals courts. 1176 01:04:27,906 --> 01:04:32,077 There really is a conflict between same-sex marriage 1177 01:04:32,077 --> 01:04:34,079 or institutionalized same-sex marriage 1178 01:04:34,079 --> 01:04:35,538 and religious liberty. 1179 01:04:37,123 --> 01:04:40,585 Utah hires Washington DC attorney Gene Scheer 1180 01:04:40,585 --> 01:04:43,296 to help them defend the same-sex marriage ban 1181 01:04:43,296 --> 01:04:46,132 in front of the Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals in Denver. 1182 01:04:46,132 --> 01:04:49,219 Scheer is a Mormon, and as he's leaving his firm, 1183 01:04:49,219 --> 01:04:51,137 he crafts this email 1184 01:04:51,137 --> 01:04:52,889 in which he's explaining to his colleagues 1185 01:04:52,889 --> 01:04:55,141 his reason for going to do this. 1186 01:04:55,141 --> 01:04:56,851 He feels a religious duty 1187 01:04:56,851 --> 01:04:59,687 to help defend traditional marriage. 1188 01:05:01,439 --> 01:05:05,735 Gene Scheer came into the senate Republican caucus 1189 01:05:05,735 --> 01:05:10,073 and said that we were forbidden to run any legislation 1190 01:05:10,073 --> 01:05:12,867 that might touch on the LGBT community. 1191 01:05:12,867 --> 01:05:15,370 For the Utah legislature to shut its doors, 1192 01:05:15,370 --> 01:05:16,913 we're better than that. 1193 01:05:16,913 --> 01:05:18,665 We take on the tough issues. 1194 01:05:18,665 --> 01:05:20,667 Remember, he was working for the state 1195 01:05:20,667 --> 01:05:24,712 and talking about working for a conservative think tank. 1196 01:05:24,712 --> 01:05:26,631 So I think it was a very cheap move, 1197 01:05:26,631 --> 01:05:28,842 and that's what I said in that caucus. 1198 01:05:28,842 --> 01:05:30,635 I didn't feel he was representing the state. 1199 01:05:30,635 --> 01:05:35,682 I felt like he was representing this conservative think tank. 1200 01:05:37,892 --> 01:05:39,561 There was such a desire 1201 01:05:39,561 --> 01:05:44,065 for people to understand the diversity of gay rights, 1202 01:05:44,065 --> 01:05:46,943 yet it didn't seem to flow both ways. 1203 01:05:48,528 --> 01:05:51,739 Any community has a strong majority of something. 1204 01:05:53,366 --> 01:05:56,786 Now, there a lot of people who follow the LDS faith 1205 01:05:56,786 --> 01:05:58,079 in the legislature, 1206 01:05:58,079 --> 01:05:59,497 and Attorney General Reyes 1207 01:05:59,497 --> 01:06:02,000 happened to be a Mormon bishop years ago. 1208 01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:04,752 But I did not see the LDS Church ever coming in 1209 01:06:04,752 --> 01:06:06,921 and lobbying us during the case. 1210 01:06:06,921 --> 01:06:08,715 I'll just throw that out there. They didn't. 1211 01:06:08,715 --> 01:06:10,758 There's no doubt. I mean, absolutely. 1212 01:06:10,758 --> 01:06:13,052 Anything that happened on the same-sex marriage issue, 1213 01:06:13,052 --> 01:06:15,513 the Church was controlling. 1214 01:06:15,513 --> 01:06:19,809 Remember, I've dealt with the Church on LGBT issues. 1215 01:06:19,809 --> 01:06:23,563 Whether it's a whisper and a nod here and there, 1216 01:06:23,563 --> 01:06:26,858 the Church completely was in favor of what was going on. 1217 01:06:26,858 --> 01:06:28,693 Otherwise, it wouldn't have been happening. 1218 01:06:28,693 --> 01:06:30,195 A system is in place. 1219 01:06:30,195 --> 01:06:31,988 It's a good thing a system is in place, 1220 01:06:31,988 --> 01:06:34,616 and we'll continue to do our jobs. 1221 01:07:01,935 --> 01:07:07,732 We have finally had an opportunity to put in writing 1222 01:07:07,732 --> 01:07:13,738 why the state's opening brief wholly lacks merit. 1223 01:07:13,738 --> 01:07:16,783 I think the thing that is disturbing to me 1224 01:07:16,783 --> 01:07:20,370 is this whole child-centric argument 1225 01:07:20,370 --> 01:07:23,873 when they're now intervening in all of these adoptions. 1226 01:07:23,873 --> 01:07:25,708 If they cared about the kids, 1227 01:07:25,708 --> 01:07:28,461 they would care about providing as much security, 1228 01:07:28,461 --> 01:07:32,674 stability and support as they can. 1229 01:07:32,674 --> 01:07:35,468 I just wanna know it's really gone, 1230 01:07:35,468 --> 01:07:38,221 and it's in someone else's hands, 1231 01:07:38,221 --> 01:07:40,223 and that they're gonna be reading it 1232 01:07:40,223 --> 01:07:44,310 after reading the state's brief, and they're gonna go, "Yeah!" 1233 01:07:46,020 --> 01:07:48,189 That's what we were thinking! 1234 01:07:48,189 --> 01:07:50,233 And they said it better. 1235 01:07:54,237 --> 01:07:58,783 If you read the state's brief, it is really an emotional plea 1236 01:07:58,783 --> 01:08:02,078 based on arguments that are not real 1237 01:08:02,078 --> 01:08:04,372 or supported by social science 1238 01:08:04,372 --> 01:08:07,750 and ignore constitutional tenets. 1239 01:08:11,754 --> 01:08:17,010 The Constitution is intended to avoid having any majority 1240 01:08:17,010 --> 01:08:21,180 impose its personal, biased viewpoint 1241 01:08:21,180 --> 01:08:24,100 on the rest of the citizens. 1242 01:08:32,233 --> 01:08:36,654 I think we're just gonna have to file the one they sent us. 1243 01:08:36,654 --> 01:08:39,699 We don't have enough time. Hey, and this is perfect. 1244 01:08:39,699 --> 01:08:40,825 We're good. 1245 01:08:40,825 --> 01:08:43,578 Sorry, buddy, go to bed. 1246 01:08:43,578 --> 01:08:46,080 We are so excited about this. 1247 01:08:46,080 --> 01:08:49,208 The brief is awesome, awesome, awesome. 1248 01:08:49,208 --> 01:08:51,127 We're almost there! 1249 01:08:51,127 --> 01:08:53,504 As long as we get it filed before midnight, 1250 01:08:53,504 --> 01:08:54,756 that's what matters. 1251 01:09:00,219 --> 01:09:02,096 Whoo! 1252 01:09:37,590 --> 01:09:39,467 Next week the Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals 1253 01:09:39,467 --> 01:09:42,178 will hear Utah's case against same-sex marriage. 1254 01:09:42,178 --> 01:09:44,180 Now this a ruling that could impact 1255 01:09:44,180 --> 01:09:46,140 every single state in this country. 1256 01:09:46,140 --> 01:09:48,351 It'll likely be the first federal ruling 1257 01:09:48,351 --> 01:09:51,145 on the constitutionality of same-sex marriage ever. 1258 01:09:52,563 --> 01:09:57,318 We are not going away. This is our home! 1259 01:09:57,318 --> 01:09:59,946 Utah's exactly the right place. 1260 01:09:59,946 --> 01:10:02,073 We have always experimented 1261 01:10:02,073 --> 01:10:04,992 with social and marital relationships. 1262 01:10:04,992 --> 01:10:07,537 They're all history. 1263 01:10:07,537 --> 01:10:11,040 We are blessed when we are persecuted 1264 01:10:11,040 --> 01:10:13,376 for the sake of righteousness. 1265 01:10:13,376 --> 01:10:17,964 Whatever any court decides does not end this fight. 1266 01:10:17,964 --> 01:10:21,384 The court does not decide the definition of marriage. 1267 01:10:21,384 --> 01:10:24,846 Now at least 84 people or groups 1268 01:10:24,846 --> 01:10:27,223 are finding themselves as friends of the court. 1269 01:10:27,223 --> 01:10:30,393 Groups like the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 1270 01:10:30,393 --> 01:10:34,021 Just yesterday, a group of 81 state lawmakers 1271 01:10:34,021 --> 01:10:37,400 filed saying, "We especially feel a profound duty 1272 01:10:37,400 --> 01:10:39,861 to the children of the state." 1273 01:10:42,822 --> 01:10:44,907 The impact of a bad ruling 1274 01:10:44,907 --> 01:10:47,910 will be felt for decades. 1275 01:11:09,599 --> 01:11:11,684 - Okay, turn around. - It's not choking me. 1276 01:11:11,684 --> 01:11:14,812 Okay, as long as it's not a full choke, you're fine. 1277 01:11:24,447 --> 01:11:26,115 You look very handsome today. 1278 01:11:26,115 --> 01:11:28,117 Thanks. So do you. 1279 01:12:22,838 --> 01:12:24,924 We're here this morning for one case. 1280 01:12:24,924 --> 01:12:27,885 13-4178 Kitchen v. Herbert. 1281 01:12:27,885 --> 01:12:30,263 Counsel, you may proceed. 1282 01:12:30,263 --> 01:12:31,931 Thank you, Your Honor, and good morning. 1283 01:12:31,931 --> 01:12:35,142 I am Gene Scheer, and I am honored to appear today 1284 01:12:35,142 --> 01:12:38,479 on behalf of the state of Utah and its people. 1285 01:12:38,479 --> 01:12:40,356 The issue is really one of authority. 1286 01:12:40,356 --> 01:12:43,025 That is, whether under the federal Constitution, 1287 01:12:43,025 --> 01:12:46,862 the state's definitional authority over marriage 1288 01:12:46,862 --> 01:12:49,532 allows them to retain the traditional 1289 01:12:49,532 --> 01:12:51,534 man/woman definition of marriage. 1290 01:12:51,534 --> 01:12:55,997 Your Honor, every state, including the state of Utah, 1291 01:12:55,997 --> 01:12:58,583 is bound by the guarantees 1292 01:12:58,583 --> 01:13:02,253 and protections of the 14th Amendment 1293 01:13:02,253 --> 01:13:06,924 for every single citizen in its state. 1294 01:13:06,924 --> 01:13:12,722 Amendment 3, and the other marriage discrimination laws... 1295 01:13:12,722 --> 01:13:14,849 ...was to exclude same-sex couples 1296 01:13:14,849 --> 01:13:17,059 from marriage recognition. 1297 01:13:21,314 --> 01:13:24,108 The man/woman marriage conveys the message 1298 01:13:24,108 --> 01:13:27,028 that a mom and dad are important, okay? 1299 01:13:27,028 --> 01:13:28,905 And when you redefine marriage, 1300 01:13:28,905 --> 01:13:31,490 you dilute that message in the law. 1301 01:13:31,490 --> 01:13:33,618 Your Honor, one large national study 1302 01:13:33,618 --> 01:13:36,746 found that boys raised outside of attached marriages 1303 01:13:36,746 --> 01:13:39,332 were two to three times more likely 1304 01:13:39,332 --> 01:13:41,959 to commit a crime leading to imprisonment. 1305 01:13:41,959 --> 01:13:46,130 There is no study that, in fact, measures 1306 01:13:46,130 --> 01:13:49,717 that same-sex parenting is not as good 1307 01:13:49,717 --> 01:13:52,386 as what they call a man/woman marriage. 1308 01:13:52,386 --> 01:13:54,138 We want to be clear. 1309 01:13:54,138 --> 01:13:56,557 This historical practice is the one that Utah supports. 1310 01:13:56,557 --> 01:13:58,100 Period. 1311 01:13:58,100 --> 01:14:01,062 Your Honor, the Supreme Court has expressed 1312 01:14:01,062 --> 01:14:05,733 that an individual's constitutional rights 1313 01:14:05,733 --> 01:14:10,696 are not subject to public vote or legislative action. 1314 01:14:10,696 --> 01:14:13,991 These laws are not the type of laws 1315 01:14:13,991 --> 01:14:17,119 that our Constitution will permit 1316 01:14:17,119 --> 01:14:20,289 because, as the court has said before, 1317 01:14:20,289 --> 01:14:26,003 the Constitution does not allow classes between its citizens. 1318 01:14:27,213 --> 01:14:29,340 Thank you for your time. 1319 01:14:48,442 --> 01:14:52,571 We look forward to a swift decision 1320 01:14:52,571 --> 01:14:55,533 and have confidence that these judges 1321 01:14:55,533 --> 01:14:59,870 will give this case the serious consideration it deserves, 1322 01:14:59,870 --> 01:15:04,583 and we look forward to bringing marriage equality to Utah 1323 01:15:04,583 --> 01:15:07,336 and the rest of the Tenth Circuit. 1324 01:15:13,926 --> 01:15:16,095 When Gene Scheer argued, 1325 01:15:16,095 --> 01:15:21,475 I was surprised that he was less of a legal advocate 1326 01:15:21,475 --> 01:15:23,602 than I thought he would be 1327 01:15:23,602 --> 01:15:27,857 and more an advocate for his own personal religious beliefs. 1328 01:15:29,400 --> 01:15:33,154 It was almost to the point of being offensive, 1329 01:15:33,154 --> 01:15:37,700 how he was casting children who grew up without fathers. 1330 01:15:37,700 --> 01:15:40,202 The fact that they were more likely to be 1331 01:15:40,202 --> 01:15:43,914 sexual deviants and drug addicts. 1332 01:15:46,500 --> 01:15:48,210 It made me realize 1333 01:15:48,210 --> 01:15:52,256 how much some of these positions with the state was taking 1334 01:15:52,256 --> 01:15:54,633 were truly hurting children 1335 01:15:54,633 --> 01:15:57,470 when my son, who was there, came up to me. 1336 01:15:57,470 --> 01:16:01,098 He said, "Do you realize he's talking about me?" 1337 01:16:06,687 --> 01:16:08,689 Attorney General Sean Reyes joins me now 1338 01:16:08,689 --> 01:16:10,149 to tell us a little bit more 1339 01:16:10,149 --> 01:16:12,193 about how you thought the proceedings went 1340 01:16:12,193 --> 01:16:14,487 and the importance of this case in the state of Utah. 1341 01:16:14,487 --> 01:16:17,490 Thanks, Rich. Both sides acquitted themselves very well. 1342 01:16:17,490 --> 01:16:21,368 It was a very active panel. Questions that... 1343 01:16:21,368 --> 01:16:23,245 As we walked into the courtroom, 1344 01:16:23,245 --> 01:16:25,748 you could feel the gravity of the moment. 1345 01:16:25,748 --> 01:16:27,333 We sat down on the bench, 1346 01:16:27,333 --> 01:16:30,044 and we were waiting for our oral arguments to begin, 1347 01:16:30,044 --> 01:16:33,422 and Attorney General Reyes came up and introduced himself. 1348 01:16:33,422 --> 01:16:37,301 Then he kneeled down and said he wanted us to be happy, 1349 01:16:37,301 --> 01:16:38,844 and that he never wanted to hurt us. 1350 01:16:38,844 --> 01:16:41,263 I did use the phrase "It's not personal." 1351 01:16:41,263 --> 01:16:43,641 Obviously, it's very personal to everybody. 1352 01:16:43,641 --> 01:16:45,726 But I was saying that enforcement of the law 1353 01:16:45,726 --> 01:16:48,646 was not intended to single out any particular family. 1354 01:16:48,646 --> 01:16:51,398 I've tried to put myself in their shoes. 1355 01:16:51,398 --> 01:16:53,442 Then I realized he was blatantly lying 1356 01:16:53,442 --> 01:16:55,569 because if he did care about us 1357 01:16:55,569 --> 01:16:57,029 and he cared about our happiness, 1358 01:16:57,029 --> 01:17:00,032 then he wouldn't be in the courtroom 1359 01:17:00,032 --> 01:17:04,870 actively trying to prevent us from marrying one another. 1360 01:17:04,870 --> 01:17:06,997 When he knelt down and said, 1361 01:17:06,997 --> 01:17:08,999 "I hope you know that this isn't personal," 1362 01:17:08,999 --> 01:17:14,797 it brought tears to our eyes because what else was it? 1363 01:17:14,797 --> 01:17:17,716 That's all it was, was personal. 1364 01:17:17,716 --> 01:17:19,343 The position that we're taking 1365 01:17:19,343 --> 01:17:23,013 likely causes them pain and heartache, 1366 01:17:23,013 --> 01:17:26,058 and I'm sorry for that. 1367 01:17:26,058 --> 01:17:29,436 I don't apologize for what we're doing 1368 01:17:29,436 --> 01:17:32,648 in terms of representing the laws of the state of Utah. 1369 01:17:32,648 --> 01:17:35,442 I remember him saying, "I know you love your family 1370 01:17:35,442 --> 01:17:37,278 as much as I love mine." 1371 01:17:37,278 --> 01:17:39,321 I would like to focus on the fact 1372 01:17:39,321 --> 01:17:42,616 that he recognized that Laurie and I were a family. 1373 01:18:21,989 --> 01:18:23,991 Same-sex marriage is once again 1374 01:18:23,991 --> 01:18:25,659 legal in the state of Utah. 1375 01:18:25,659 --> 01:18:27,411 That's because of the ruling coming down 1376 01:18:27,411 --> 01:18:29,330 about an hour ago on Amendment 3 1377 01:18:29,330 --> 01:18:31,290 from the Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals. 1378 01:18:31,290 --> 01:18:33,918 The Attorney General sent this letter 1379 01:18:33,918 --> 01:18:35,753 to all county clerks in the state: 1380 01:18:35,753 --> 01:18:37,880 "Effective immediately, all counties are advised 1381 01:18:37,880 --> 01:18:40,674 to conduct business today and going forward, 1382 01:18:40,674 --> 01:18:44,261 recognizing all legally performed same-sex marriages." 1383 01:18:50,059 --> 01:18:52,603 Shelby's ruling parted the waters 1384 01:18:52,603 --> 01:18:57,358 and every other ruling was following in Shelby's footsteps. 1385 01:18:57,358 --> 01:19:00,986 The reason Judge Shelby's decision became the domino 1386 01:19:00,986 --> 01:19:04,907 is it was the first federal court to declare 1387 01:19:04,907 --> 01:19:08,410 that a state could not ban marriage equality. 1388 01:19:08,410 --> 01:19:11,747 Utah to be the first domino was unexpected. 1389 01:19:11,747 --> 01:19:14,792 That really shocked the entire state. 1390 01:19:14,792 --> 01:19:18,003 At that point, we knew the world had changed. 1391 01:19:18,003 --> 01:19:24,468 ♪♪ 1392 01:19:38,273 --> 01:19:39,900 When it really sank in 1393 01:19:39,900 --> 01:19:44,071 is when I got to do my second parent adoption. 1394 01:19:47,032 --> 01:19:48,909 I was a mess. 1395 01:19:48,909 --> 01:19:50,995 I cried. I couldn't get my voice 1396 01:19:50,995 --> 01:19:53,998 to quit wavering all over place. 1397 01:20:00,504 --> 01:20:05,217 When you love a child, it's a very powerless position 1398 01:20:05,217 --> 01:20:08,429 not to be able to protect them and tell them they're secure, 1399 01:20:08,429 --> 01:20:10,848 and they don't need to worry. 1400 01:20:10,848 --> 01:20:13,475 The judge asked him, "What do you think about this?" 1401 01:20:13,475 --> 01:20:16,895 He goes, "I am so happy." 1402 01:20:16,895 --> 01:20:20,107 He said, "I love Peggy so much." 1403 01:20:23,652 --> 01:20:25,738 "Do you want her to be your mom?" 1404 01:20:25,738 --> 01:20:28,824 "Especially I want her to be my mom." 1405 01:20:51,513 --> 01:20:54,933 Here is my life sitting in here, getting all dirty and ruined. 1406 01:20:56,643 --> 01:21:00,147 I haven't had a positive amount in my checking account 1407 01:21:00,147 --> 01:21:02,858 for probably nine months now. 1408 01:21:04,193 --> 01:21:06,195 Christ, I'm 57 years old, 1409 01:21:06,195 --> 01:21:07,863 and I don't have my own home yet. 1410 01:21:07,863 --> 01:21:11,075 That really, really makes me feel shitty. 1411 01:21:12,910 --> 01:21:17,289 That has a lot to do with why I got involved in this damn case. 1412 01:21:17,289 --> 01:21:19,666 It's been a good distraction. 1413 01:21:23,962 --> 01:21:28,342 When you look at these stories of how sweet everything was? 1414 01:21:28,342 --> 01:21:31,512 Bullshit. 1415 01:21:31,512 --> 01:21:34,515 We were almost, at one point, like a little family. 1416 01:21:34,515 --> 01:21:36,850 And now we're enemies. 1417 01:21:40,270 --> 01:21:43,732 Somebody asked me, "Would you do it over again?" 1418 01:21:45,442 --> 01:21:47,569 I don't think I would. 1419 01:21:57,746 --> 01:22:03,043 ♪♪